1
00:00:10,310 --> 00:00:08,419
everybody this alex karras from

2
00:00:12,110 --> 00:00:10,320
skeptical calm just want to let you know

3
00:00:15,110 --> 00:00:12,120
that i recently published an interview

4
00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:15,120
with dr. julie bosch all about her new

5
00:00:21,109 --> 00:00:18,810
research into assisted after death

6
00:00:24,230 --> 00:00:21,119
communication in other words talking to

7
00:00:25,609 --> 00:00:24,240
medium so if you want to check it out

8
00:00:27,109 --> 00:00:25,619
it's on the skip to go up site you can

9
00:00:28,670 --> 00:00:27,119
listen to the full interview i'll have

10
00:00:30,890 --> 00:00:28,680
it here as a youtube you can listen to

11
00:00:33,229 --> 00:00:30,900
it here if you want as well dr. julie

12
00:00:35,870 --> 00:00:33,239
bosch he'll if you don't know is a PhD

13
00:00:37,340 --> 00:00:35,880
in pharmacology and toxicology she

14
00:00:39,500 --> 00:00:37,350
really knows what she's doing she can

15
00:00:41,569 --> 00:00:39,510
really put together tightly controlled

16
00:00:44,810 --> 00:00:41,579
experiments and that's what she's done

17
00:00:47,810 --> 00:00:44,820
here konna is the final nail in the

18
00:00:50,180 --> 00:00:47,820
coffin and no pun intended in terms of

19
00:00:52,910 --> 00:00:50,190
whether or not medium communication is

20
00:00:56,150 --> 00:00:52,920
real it definitely is real according to

21
00:00:58,790 --> 00:00:56,160
her research she now has a total of 74

22
00:01:01,459 --> 00:00:58,800
readings under more than double-blind

23
00:01:03,820 --> 00:01:01,469
conditions it's just really impressive

24
00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:03,830
stuff handles all the cold reading

25
00:01:09,380 --> 00:01:06,090
objections and all the other really

26
00:01:12,500 --> 00:01:09,390
silliness that that skeptics make about

27
00:01:19,010 --> 00:01:12,510
this research check it out here is the

28
00:01:22,370 --> 00:01:19,020
full interview with dr. julie Bushell on

29
00:01:24,740 --> 00:01:22,380
this episode of sceptic o psychic

30
00:01:27,499 --> 00:01:24,750
mediums is this some kind of joke I mean

31
00:01:30,830 --> 00:01:27,509
research in science doesn't go with the

32
00:01:33,170 --> 00:01:30,840
term medium communication does it so

33
00:01:35,990 --> 00:01:33,180
science is just a tool it's just one way

34
00:01:38,359 --> 00:01:36,000
we learn how the universe works and so

35
00:01:41,210 --> 00:01:38,369
it can be applied to anything and there

36
00:01:44,569 --> 00:01:41,220
was a lot of people with strong opinions

37
00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:44,579
about what the capacity of mediums is

38
00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:46,130
can they report accurate and specific

39
00:01:51,590 --> 00:01:49,170
information and so I took the scientific

40
00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:51,600
method and I applied it to mediumship

41
00:01:56,209 --> 00:01:53,130
which again it's just a tool you can

42
00:01:57,620 --> 00:01:56,219
apply to anything and so yeah it does go

43
00:01:59,510 --> 00:01:57,630
together because it's something we don't

44
00:02:02,149 --> 00:01:59,520
fully understand yet so yeah it's the

45
00:02:15,050 --> 00:02:02,159
perfect thing for science to tackle stay

46
00:02:18,780 --> 00:02:17,220
welcome to skeptical where we explore

47
00:02:21,180 --> 00:02:18,790
controversial science with leading

48
00:02:22,890 --> 00:02:21,190
researchers thinkers and their critics

49
00:02:24,930 --> 00:02:22,900
I'm your host Aleksic Harrison on this

50
00:02:27,930 --> 00:02:24,940
episode of skeptic Oh as you may have

51
00:02:29,820 --> 00:02:27,940
just heard medium communication research

52
00:02:31,710 --> 00:02:29,830
you know this is a topic that we've

53
00:02:33,330 --> 00:02:31,720
touched on a couple of times in the show

54
00:02:36,030 --> 00:02:33,340
and I have to tell you when I got this

55
00:02:38,339 --> 00:02:36,040
latest email from dr. Julie by shell at

56
00:02:40,380 --> 00:02:38,349
the wind bridge Institute in the back of

57
00:02:42,809 --> 00:02:40,390
my mind I was thinking wow do we really

58
00:02:44,610 --> 00:02:42,819
need to cover this again and it's funny

59
00:02:48,690 --> 00:02:44,620
because as I got into this show I

60
00:02:50,910 --> 00:02:48,700
realized how central this topic is to

61
00:02:54,030 --> 00:02:50,920
everything we're talking about and in a

62
00:02:56,460 --> 00:02:54,040
lot of ways that I guess were surprising

63
00:03:00,509 --> 00:02:56,470
to me one little tidbit I'll give you is

64
00:03:03,809 --> 00:03:00,519
just the extent to which the therapy

65
00:03:06,589 --> 00:03:03,819
community around the topic of grief has

66
00:03:09,869 --> 00:03:06,599
totally moved away from this

67
00:03:11,699 --> 00:03:09,879
materialistic reductionistic biological

68
00:03:13,710 --> 00:03:11,709
robot meme that we always talk about on

69
00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:13,720
this show so it's buried in this

70
00:03:18,059 --> 00:03:15,250
interview but I want you to pull that

71
00:03:19,470 --> 00:03:18,069
out and when Julie says that hey you

72
00:03:22,319 --> 00:03:19,480
know in therapy

73
00:03:25,580 --> 00:03:22,329
they don't even ascribe to the idea that

74
00:03:27,479 --> 00:03:25,590
it that grief is this brain based

75
00:03:29,849 --> 00:03:27,489
physiological thing that's off the

76
00:03:32,370 --> 00:03:29,859
window because they've just empirically

77
00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:32,380
proven that that just doesn't work as a

78
00:03:36,930 --> 00:03:34,450
therapeutic model forget it it's gone

79
00:03:39,870 --> 00:03:36,940
and where they've gone is to this

80
00:03:42,300 --> 00:03:39,880
continuing bonds model which is very

81
00:03:44,670 --> 00:03:42,310
intriguing because of course it plays in

82
00:03:47,940 --> 00:03:44,680
perfectly with what Julie has discovered

83
00:03:51,500 --> 00:03:47,950
even though the therapeutic community

84
00:03:54,089 --> 00:03:51,510
wasn't anticipating that this afterlife

85
00:03:57,210 --> 00:03:54,099
communication or anything like that they

86
00:03:59,580 --> 00:03:57,220
were just following the data if you will

87
00:04:01,289 --> 00:03:59,590
so that's one little tidbit from this

88
00:04:02,610 --> 00:04:01,299
interview there's a lot of other little

89
00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:02,620
points in here that I think are

90
00:04:07,110 --> 00:04:04,810
interesting one of course is obviously

91
00:04:09,990 --> 00:04:07,120
that cheese again replicated this

92
00:04:11,849 --> 00:04:10,000
research Tytus controls can't get past

93
00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:11,859
the data everyone will step past the

94
00:04:17,039 --> 00:04:14,650
data but assisted after death

95
00:04:18,779 --> 00:04:17,049
communication is a reality we have to

96
00:04:21,029 --> 00:04:18,789
face it we have to deal with what that

97
00:04:23,969 --> 00:04:21,039
means that's established there's other

98
00:04:25,210 --> 00:04:23,979
interesting bits about the physiological

99
00:04:27,790 --> 00:04:25,220
effects of being

100
00:04:29,830 --> 00:04:27,800
the medium we touch on that and I think

101
00:04:32,380 --> 00:04:29,840
you're gonna want to listen to this very

102
00:04:34,810 --> 00:04:32,390
important announcement that she has on a

103
00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:34,820
conference that's coming up about this

104
00:04:39,850 --> 00:04:37,610
subject and I want you to know that the

105
00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:39,860
conference may have passed already but

106
00:04:44,170 --> 00:04:42,530
you can still go online and watch the

107
00:04:46,810 --> 00:04:44,180
videos and it sounds like it was a great

108
00:04:48,780 --> 00:04:46,820
conference and with some great

109
00:04:50,650 --> 00:04:48,790
presenters and I think there's probably

110
00:04:52,090 --> 00:04:50,660
tremendous stuff there I haven't had a

111
00:04:54,460 --> 00:04:52,100
chance to go and check it all out yet

112
00:04:56,260 --> 00:04:54,470
but I will and I encourage you to as

113
00:04:58,420 --> 00:04:56,270
well and I'll have a link to that in the

114
00:05:00,070 --> 00:04:58,430
notes ok so I'm gonna play this

115
00:05:02,350 --> 00:05:00,080
interview I'm also gonna play a little

116
00:05:03,430 --> 00:05:02,360
bit of the pre-interview chat we had

117
00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:03,440
just because I think it's kind of

118
00:05:07,420 --> 00:05:05,450
interesting and lets you know what I'm

119
00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:07,430
doing kind of with the show and where

120
00:05:10,990 --> 00:05:09,410
I'm heading and so there's five or six

121
00:05:12,580 --> 00:05:11,000
minutes of that that you might have to

122
00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:12,590
endure you can skip past it if you want

123
00:05:20,740 --> 00:05:15,530
so here's my interview with dr. Julie by

124
00:05:24,100 --> 00:05:20,750
shal well let's jump into this I have a

125
00:05:25,390 --> 00:05:24,110
different format and I have to tell you

126
00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:25,400
you're somewhat of the guinea pig for

127
00:05:38,409 --> 00:05:33,050
this know what I'm trying to do is

128
00:05:41,290 --> 00:05:38,419
trying to just gain a little bit more

129
00:05:43,270 --> 00:05:41,300
traction you know I mean the podcast is

130
00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:43,280
great and it reaches thousands of people

131
00:05:48,610 --> 00:05:45,770
but there are thousands and thousands

132
00:05:52,260 --> 00:05:48,620
and thousands of people that it doesn't

133
00:05:57,969 --> 00:05:52,270
reach so I'm trying to kind of also do

134
00:06:02,200 --> 00:05:57,979
more of website upworthy shareability

135
00:06:04,719 --> 00:06:02,210
BuzzFeed kind of format too just to kind

136
00:06:08,469 --> 00:06:04,729
of reach more people because I think one

137
00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:08,479
of the problems that we all run into in

138
00:06:14,050 --> 00:06:10,490
this field including you know a lot of

139
00:06:16,150 --> 00:06:14,060
the people that you run in circles with

140
00:06:18,280 --> 00:06:16,160
that's thoroughly not the way I meant to

141
00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:18,290
say that but you know in the circles you

142
00:06:24,219 --> 00:06:21,650
run in is a little bit of groupthink you

143
00:06:26,230 --> 00:06:24,229
know I mean a little bit of oh my gosh

144
00:06:28,690 --> 00:06:26,240
we're changing the world oh my gosh

145
00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:28,700
there's paradigm shift is you know it's

146
00:06:34,450 --> 00:06:31,610
like no it's not now most people are

147
00:06:37,930 --> 00:06:34,460
still unaware of this yeah take your

148
00:06:39,310 --> 00:06:37,940
stuff for example I mean most people are

149
00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:39,320
completely

150
00:06:46,630 --> 00:06:43,490
unaware of what you've done yeah and how

151
00:06:49,870 --> 00:06:46,640
common these experiences are but it's

152
00:06:50,980 --> 00:06:49,880
it's easy to sit back and go wow and I

153
00:06:53,170 --> 00:06:50,990
hear this all the time you know people

154
00:06:55,210 --> 00:06:53,180
go oh the medium thing I mean that's

155
00:06:57,700 --> 00:06:55,220
done that we all know that's real you

156
00:07:00,190 --> 00:06:57,710
know I mean we got the TV shows we have

157
00:07:03,370 --> 00:07:00,200
the movies you know we have it's such a

158
00:07:04,990 --> 00:07:03,380
popular part of media and I go yeah but

159
00:07:07,660 --> 00:07:05,000
when you really sit down and talk to

160
00:07:12,790 --> 00:07:07,670
somebody they they have serious doubts

161
00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:12,800
about there being any science behind the

162
00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:14,930
other way like oh people know that

163
00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:17,210
they're all frauds that's what I hear oh

164
00:07:21,490 --> 00:07:18,890
we know we already know that it's

165
00:07:23,110 --> 00:07:21,500
totally been disproven and so it's it's

166
00:07:25,150 --> 00:07:23,120
I think probably people are in one of

167
00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:25,160
two camps like oh of course it's been

168
00:07:30,460 --> 00:07:27,290
proven and they really believe that it's

169
00:07:32,830 --> 00:07:30,470
true or oh no it's been dismissed and

170
00:07:35,770 --> 00:07:32,840
discounted as fraudulent I think they're

171
00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:35,780
in limbo yeah see I think I think where

172
00:07:42,610 --> 00:07:39,050
people really are is in limbo they're in

173
00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:42,620
this state of constant confusion that we

174
00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:45,530
all are which is you know on one hand I

175
00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:47,570
hear that this stuff is real you know

176
00:07:51,460 --> 00:07:49,130
when I see the movies and I see the TV

177
00:07:54,910 --> 00:07:51,470
shows and on the other hand I have this

178
00:07:58,210 --> 00:07:54,920
vague sense that the serious scientific

179
00:07:59,710 --> 00:07:58,220
folks are saying that no no no no don't

180
00:08:01,720 --> 00:07:59,720
look there so I'm kind of in limbo I

181
00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:01,730
don't know which way to jumpin and I

182
00:08:06,340 --> 00:08:04,370
think they just sit there in limbo and I

183
00:08:10,030 --> 00:08:06,350
that's where I just think we need to

184
00:08:12,610 --> 00:08:10,040
just pound away at the same old thing

185
00:08:15,130 --> 00:08:12,620
which is what you know some people like

186
00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:15,140
dr. Boswell here have really tried to

187
00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:17,570
take a serious look at it and here's

188
00:08:21,610 --> 00:08:19,730
what they found out and you know there

189
00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:21,620
you go yeah and I think people are

190
00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:24,050
getting conflicting information from

191
00:08:28,450 --> 00:08:26,210
other non scientific sources like

192
00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:28,460
religion like I had this experience

193
00:08:35,830 --> 00:08:31,610
where I was speaking at a one of our

194
00:08:37,630 --> 00:08:35,840
mediums invited me to speak at the

195
00:08:39,670 --> 00:08:37,640
psychic fair in Cincinnati you know is

196
00:08:43,330 --> 00:08:39,680
it's huge I do it twice a year at the

197
00:08:44,680 --> 00:08:43,340
convention centers huge and my aunt's

198
00:08:46,420 --> 00:08:44,690
live in Cincinnati and so they were

199
00:08:47,830 --> 00:08:46,430
going to come and hear me talk and they

200
00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:47,840
it was on a Sunday and they went to

201
00:08:51,730 --> 00:08:49,130
church that morning my extended family

202
00:08:52,490 --> 00:08:51,740
is very Catholic and my aunt was telling

203
00:08:53,930 --> 00:08:52,500
me that

204
00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:53,940
after church she was talking to her

205
00:08:55,970 --> 00:08:54,930
friend and her friend said oh what do

206
00:08:58,280 --> 00:08:55,980
you what are you gonna do today and she

207
00:09:00,770 --> 00:08:58,290
said oh my niece is speaking at this

208
00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:00,780
psychic fair about you know her research

209
00:09:04,940 --> 00:09:03,330
with mediums and her friend like sort of

210
00:09:07,850 --> 00:09:04,950
just stopped and tilted her head and

211
00:09:11,060 --> 00:09:07,860
said I don't know if I'm allowed to do

212
00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:11,070
that and like this is a grown woman but

213
00:09:16,100 --> 00:09:14,490
like there's this idea that these like

214
00:09:17,540 --> 00:09:16,110
we were saying some people think it's

215
00:09:19,970 --> 00:09:17,550
fraudulent some people think it's proven

216
00:09:21,950 --> 00:09:19,980
some people think it's evil totally so

217
00:09:23,630 --> 00:09:21,960
yeah there's just really a lot of

218
00:09:25,370 --> 00:09:23,640
misinformation from a lot of different

219
00:09:27,830 --> 00:09:25,380
sources and that people have to juggle

220
00:09:29,810 --> 00:09:27,840
hey that's no misinformation honey I

221
00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:29,820
mean the Bible tells us straight out

222
00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:32,610
this stuff is you know from the devil

223
00:09:38,540 --> 00:09:35,850
you are forced therefore to kind of jump

224
00:09:41,780 --> 00:09:38,550
on one side or the other in fact you you

225
00:09:44,300 --> 00:09:41,790
do I mean I have to have a little bit of

226
00:09:47,570 --> 00:09:44,310
empathy for the atheist who I'm always

227
00:09:49,550 --> 00:09:47,580
on his show just kind of pillar ring but

228
00:09:52,460 --> 00:09:49,560
I'm on one hand and there's still just a

229
00:09:54,340 --> 00:09:52,470
lot of really crazy confusing ideas out

230
00:09:56,750 --> 00:09:54,350
there that need to be dispelled about

231
00:09:58,250 --> 00:09:56,760
religion and and I mean if you dive into

232
00:10:01,090 --> 00:09:58,260
it you know because what I just said of

233
00:10:03,590 --> 00:10:01,100
course is contradicted by a lot of

234
00:10:05,150 --> 00:10:03,600
religious scholars who go in and say

235
00:10:07,610 --> 00:10:05,160
well gee that's not really the way that

236
00:10:09,350 --> 00:10:07,620
it was or understood or that even if you

237
00:10:11,450 --> 00:10:09,360
are Christian you know you can find all

238
00:10:13,460 --> 00:10:11,460
these accounts of people in the Bible

239
00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:13,470
who were supposed to respect doing this

240
00:10:17,180 --> 00:10:15,330
kind of stuff but let's leave all that

241
00:10:19,310 --> 00:10:17,190
aside because the Bible is a crock as we

242
00:10:21,740 --> 00:10:19,320
know historically but still that's a lot

243
00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:21,750
of a lot for people to sort through and

244
00:10:25,730 --> 00:10:23,330
kind of shift through in terms of

245
00:10:27,730 --> 00:10:25,740
overturning their belief systems and all

246
00:10:29,870 --> 00:10:27,740
the specifics from when you were a child

247
00:10:34,130 --> 00:10:29,880
absolutely understood you don't even

248
00:10:36,380 --> 00:10:34,140
question it absolutely okay now that was

249
00:10:43,340 --> 00:10:36,390
all pre-interview talk but do you mind

250
00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:43,350
if I use some of this and okay before

251
00:10:48,740 --> 00:10:45,330
becoming the preeminent researcher of

252
00:10:51,170 --> 00:10:48,750
medium communication or as she likes to

253
00:10:54,290 --> 00:10:51,180
call it hypothesized anomalous

254
00:10:57,230 --> 00:10:54,300
information reception dr. Julie by

255
00:11:00,470 --> 00:10:57,240
she'll was a newly minted PhD in

256
00:11:02,780 --> 00:11:00,480
pharmacology and toxicology who is

257
00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:02,790
trying to come to grips with the loss of

258
00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:05,970
her mother grief had led dr. by shell to

259
00:11:08,810 --> 00:11:06,330
the DOE

260
00:11:11,570 --> 00:11:08,820
of dr. Gary Schwartz whose controversial

261
00:11:14,270 --> 00:11:11,580
research into medium communication had

262
00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:14,280
drawn national attention after several

263
00:11:19,270 --> 00:11:17,610
years of collaboration during which dr.

264
00:11:21,260 --> 00:11:19,280
by shell designed and implemented

265
00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:21,270
experiments which have become widely

266
00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:24,330
recognized as setting the gold standard

267
00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:26,610
in such research Julie left the

268
00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:29,370
University of Arizona to found the wind

269
00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:31,650
bridge Institute her research into

270
00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:33,930
medium communication and its effect on

271
00:11:39,140 --> 00:11:36,450
the bereaved continues to shed light on

272
00:11:42,230 --> 00:11:39,150
this phenomena that redefines who we are

273
00:11:45,500 --> 00:11:42,240
and ever so directly flies in the face

274
00:11:48,680 --> 00:11:45,510
of what science is telling us about life

275
00:11:50,990 --> 00:11:48,690
and death okay Julie you had to endure

276
00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:51,000
my kind of written prepared introduction

277
00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:54,210
but with that welcome welcome back I

278
00:11:57,740 --> 00:11:55,770
should say it's great to have you on

279
00:12:00,770 --> 00:11:57,750
skeptic oh thanks so much for having me

280
00:12:03,710 --> 00:12:00,780
back I'm pleased to be here so there is

281
00:12:06,610 --> 00:12:03,720
so much that we can talk about but I

282
00:12:10,460 --> 00:12:06,620
really want to try and bring us into

283
00:12:13,490 --> 00:12:10,470
alignment or focus on some fantastic

284
00:12:17,420 --> 00:12:13,500
research papers that you've put out that

285
00:12:19,580 --> 00:12:17,430
really expand this whole area in some

286
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:19,590
new areas that are very very exciting

287
00:12:25,850 --> 00:12:23,610
let's dig into the first one here that

288
00:12:29,090 --> 00:12:25,860
you sent me Julie you're one of the most

289
00:12:31,790 --> 00:12:29,100
renowned and deservedly respected

290
00:12:33,770 --> 00:12:31,800
researchers of this medium communication

291
00:12:35,510 --> 00:12:33,780
phenomena and as I just mentioned you've

292
00:12:37,820 --> 00:12:35,520
set the gold standard for this kind of

293
00:12:39,560 --> 00:12:37,830
research what a lot of scholars point to

294
00:12:42,350 --> 00:12:39,570
and say this is really the way to do

295
00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:42,360
this research but given this paper that

296
00:12:47,990 --> 00:12:43,890
you've just given me I still have to ask

297
00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:48,000
the question that I'm sure many ask when

298
00:12:53,540 --> 00:12:50,250
they run into it is are you kidding

299
00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:53,550
you're researching psychic mediums is

300
00:12:58,040 --> 00:12:55,770
this some kind of joke I mean research

301
00:13:01,370 --> 00:12:58,050
and science doesn't go with the term

302
00:13:03,350 --> 00:13:01,380
medium communication does it so science

303
00:13:06,050 --> 00:13:03,360
is just a tool it's just one way we

304
00:13:08,420 --> 00:13:06,060
learn how the universe works and so it

305
00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:08,430
can be applied to anything and there was

306
00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:11,130
a lot of people with strong opinions

307
00:13:16,010 --> 00:13:14,490
about what the capacity of mediums is

308
00:13:19,070 --> 00:13:16,020
can they report accurate and specific

309
00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:19,080
information and so I took the scientific

310
00:13:22,620 --> 00:13:20,290
method and I applied it

311
00:13:24,749 --> 00:13:22,630
to mediumship which again it's just a

312
00:13:26,939 --> 00:13:24,759
tool you can apply to anything and so

313
00:13:28,710 --> 00:13:26,949
yeah it does go together because it's

314
00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:28,720
something we don't fully understand yet

315
00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:30,130
so yeah it's the perfect thing for

316
00:13:34,790 --> 00:13:31,930
science to tackle because we don't

317
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:34,800
understand it you've spent a lot of time

318
00:13:40,620 --> 00:13:38,050
actually investigating whether or not

319
00:13:42,749 --> 00:13:40,630
the information that mediums give their

320
00:13:44,699 --> 00:13:42,759
clients is accurate which of course

321
00:13:46,350 --> 00:13:44,709
would be the first thing that we would

322
00:13:47,999 --> 00:13:46,360
have to start with in terms of this

323
00:13:50,579 --> 00:13:48,009
phenomena now we're going to talk about

324
00:13:53,759 --> 00:13:50,589
in a minute this latest research project

325
00:13:55,680 --> 00:13:53,769
you've done which extends that much much

326
00:13:58,350 --> 00:13:55,690
further but I think the bedrock of

327
00:14:02,040 --> 00:13:58,360
course is is there really a phenomena

328
00:14:04,319 --> 00:14:02,050
here to study can you give folks just a

329
00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:04,329
brief summary of what you've done to

330
00:14:09,780 --> 00:14:07,569
find out whether this phenomena is

331
00:14:12,300 --> 00:14:09,790
really happening and kind of summarize

332
00:14:15,660 --> 00:14:12,310
those results and then later we can talk

333
00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:15,670
about this most recent research paper

334
00:14:20,249 --> 00:14:17,290
the other one that you did to further

335
00:14:23,490 --> 00:14:20,259
extend and verify what you found out

336
00:14:27,750 --> 00:14:23,500
before but maybe first off just kind of

337
00:14:29,790 --> 00:14:27,760
this high level picture of how you went

338
00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:29,800
about finding out whether this stuff

339
00:14:34,740 --> 00:14:32,170
really happens so in order to

340
00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:34,750
investigate mediumship an experiment

341
00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:36,370
really needs to have two important

342
00:14:43,259 --> 00:14:40,170
factors one an experimental environment

343
00:14:45,389 --> 00:14:43,269
that best mimics the way mediumship

344
00:14:46,829 --> 00:14:45,399
exists in nature so you needed an

345
00:14:49,230 --> 00:14:46,839
optimal research environment then you

346
00:14:51,150 --> 00:14:49,240
also need maximum controls so you need

347
00:14:53,370 --> 00:14:51,160
to illuminate all sensory explanations

348
00:14:55,650 --> 00:14:53,380
all normal explanations for how a medium

349
00:14:57,629 --> 00:14:55,660
could be getting her information so we

350
00:14:59,879 --> 00:14:57,639
do that our readings take place over the

351
00:15:02,960 --> 00:14:59,889
phone which a lot of mediums are used to

352
00:15:05,759 --> 00:15:02,970
doing readings over the phone i

353
00:15:07,620 --> 00:15:05,769
experimenter serve as the proxy in place

354
00:15:10,530 --> 00:15:07,630
of the absent sitter who doesn't know

355
00:15:12,569 --> 00:15:10,540
the reading is taking place and then and

356
00:15:14,069 --> 00:15:12,579
then there's maximum control so I'm

357
00:15:16,590 --> 00:15:14,079
blinded I don't have any information

358
00:15:18,420 --> 00:15:16,600
about the sitter or the discarnate which

359
00:15:20,009 --> 00:15:18,430
is what we call the deceased person the

360
00:15:22,079 --> 00:15:20,019
medium is blinded she doesn't have

361
00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:22,089
anything either so she can't Google

362
00:15:27,179 --> 00:15:24,970
someone and look them up and she you

363
00:15:29,429 --> 00:15:27,189
know so we've started to address fraud

364
00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:29,439
because we can't look anything up we've

365
00:15:33,929 --> 00:15:31,930
that addresses as well experiment or

366
00:15:36,989 --> 00:15:33,939
queuing because I can't even in

367
00:15:38,129 --> 00:15:36,999
certainly sort of steer her as she's

368
00:15:39,929 --> 00:15:38,139
giving the reading because I don't have

369
00:15:43,559 --> 00:15:39,939
any information so I'm blinded she's

370
00:15:45,539 --> 00:15:43,569
blinded during scoring the sitter scores

371
00:15:47,189 --> 00:15:45,549
two different readings two transcripts

372
00:15:49,139 --> 00:15:47,199
of two readings that they didn't hear

373
00:15:51,659 --> 00:15:49,149
one is theirs which we call the target

374
00:15:53,309 --> 00:15:51,669
reading and one is someone elses that

375
00:15:54,659 --> 00:15:53,319
the same medium did a reading for

376
00:15:57,179 --> 00:15:54,669
someone else that's called a decoy

377
00:15:59,009 --> 00:15:57,189
reading and then we and then there's two

378
00:16:01,379 --> 00:15:59,019
other experimenters as part of the

379
00:16:02,849 --> 00:16:01,389
procedure who are blinded to different

380
00:16:05,489 --> 00:16:02,859
pieces of information which mediums

381
00:16:07,710 --> 00:16:05,499
doing which readings which one is for

382
00:16:09,210 --> 00:16:07,720
which discarnate etc so if there's five

383
00:16:11,249 --> 00:16:09,220
levels of blinding which is why we

384
00:16:13,829 --> 00:16:11,259
previously called a quintuple blinded

385
00:16:16,939 --> 00:16:13,839
now we're just using the term more than

386
00:16:19,139 --> 00:16:16,949
double blinded so the medium is is

387
00:16:21,029 --> 00:16:19,149
blinded the sitter is blinded and all

388
00:16:26,599 --> 00:16:21,039
the experimenters are blinded so it's

389
00:16:30,689 --> 00:16:26,609
more than doubled life and that protocol

390
00:16:34,739 --> 00:16:30,699
controls for like I said fraud cold

391
00:16:38,189 --> 00:16:34,749
reading which is the medium fraudulent

392
00:16:41,789 --> 00:16:38,199
mediums of using cues from the sitter or

393
00:16:43,679 --> 00:16:41,799
even things the sitter just tells her to

394
00:16:45,089 --> 00:16:43,689
sort of fabricate what seems to the

395
00:16:48,299 --> 00:16:45,099
sitter to be an accurate reading but

396
00:16:51,719 --> 00:16:48,309
really it's just the meeting being a

397
00:16:53,609 --> 00:16:51,729
good sociologist and reading cues and

398
00:16:56,249 --> 00:16:53,619
spitting it back to the person and then

399
00:16:58,829 --> 00:16:56,259
they you know people really want to hear

400
00:17:01,919 --> 00:16:58,839
from their deceased loved one so they'll

401
00:17:04,259 --> 00:17:01,929
they'll they'll sort of turn it into oh

402
00:17:06,689 --> 00:17:04,269
yeah I did experience communication even

403
00:17:08,340 --> 00:17:06,699
though it didn't actually happen and so

404
00:17:10,289 --> 00:17:08,350
this protocol also controls for what's

405
00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:10,299
called rater bias if you know it's your

406
00:17:15,629 --> 00:17:13,089
reading when you do the scoring you'll

407
00:17:17,519 --> 00:17:15,639
have the tendency to score more things

408
00:17:20,069 --> 00:17:17,529
as correct because you want it to be

409
00:17:21,869 --> 00:17:20,079
correct so with our protocol where the

410
00:17:23,579 --> 00:17:21,879
sitter receives two readings and only

411
00:17:25,289 --> 00:17:23,589
one of them is theirs in their blinded

412
00:17:27,689 --> 00:17:25,299
there's no way to tell which one was

413
00:17:30,210 --> 00:17:27,699
intended for you it sort of equalizes

414
00:17:32,909 --> 00:17:30,220
rater bias across the board and then we

415
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:32,919
just compare scores given to target

416
00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:34,570
readings to the scores given to decoy

417
00:17:38,940 --> 00:17:36,370
readings and we look at three we look at

418
00:17:41,490 --> 00:17:38,950
scoring in three different ways one the

419
00:17:43,649 --> 00:17:41,500
sitter score each individual item in the

420
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:43,659
reading two they give each whole reading

421
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:46,570
a global score and three they pick which

422
00:17:48,639 --> 00:17:47,450
reading they

423
00:17:51,340 --> 00:17:48,649
which meaning they think is more

424
00:17:53,860 --> 00:17:51,350
applicable to them so that's called

425
00:17:56,730 --> 00:17:53,870
binary forced choice so we say there's

426
00:17:59,340 --> 00:17:56,740
two you have to pick one and so that's

427
00:18:01,360 --> 00:17:59,350
the statistics are all relatively

428
00:18:04,269 --> 00:18:01,370
straightforward and how those things are

429
00:18:05,860 --> 00:18:04,279
analyzed and so what we found is in all

430
00:18:09,509 --> 00:18:05,870
three of those ways that we look at

431
00:18:11,710 --> 00:18:09,519
scoring that we've achieved

432
00:18:17,289 --> 00:18:11,720
statistically significant positive

433
00:18:20,039 --> 00:18:17,299
results in study done in 2007 and then a

434
00:18:24,129 --> 00:18:20,049
replication study that we just published

435
00:18:28,629 --> 00:18:24,139
earlier in 2015 so the original study

436
00:18:31,750 --> 00:18:28,639
was 16 readings and this most recent

437
00:18:34,930 --> 00:18:31,760
study is 58 so that's a total of 74

438
00:18:36,340 --> 00:18:34,940
readings in which under these more than

439
00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:36,350
double-blind conditions that

440
00:18:39,730 --> 00:18:38,090
demonstrated that mediums could report

441
00:18:42,310 --> 00:18:39,740
accurate and specific information about

442
00:18:44,919 --> 00:18:42,320
the deceased when no sensory

443
00:18:46,120 --> 00:18:44,929
explanations could be plausible for

444
00:18:49,029 --> 00:18:46,130
where they could have got their

445
00:18:50,919 --> 00:18:49,039
information right I mean what other

446
00:18:52,360 --> 00:18:50,929
explanation is plausible and I always

447
00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:52,370
think it's interesting when I hear

448
00:18:59,649 --> 00:18:55,370
people who are completely uneducated

449
00:19:01,149 --> 00:18:59,659
about the science behind this to kind of

450
00:19:03,310 --> 00:19:01,159
throw stones at it and I'm gone like

451
00:19:05,289 --> 00:19:03,320
well how would you do it any better you

452
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:05,299
know how would you tighten up the

453
00:19:08,590 --> 00:19:07,250
protocol why does it need and they just

454
00:19:10,180 --> 00:19:08,600
don't know because they haven't really

455
00:19:11,590 --> 00:19:10,190
looked at the research but you know the

456
00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:11,600
other thing I wanted to add that I think

457
00:19:16,570 --> 00:19:14,450
you might want to kind of elaborate on

458
00:19:19,419 --> 00:19:16,580
because I think it's so important to

459
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:19,429
understanding this science and how this

460
00:19:25,029 --> 00:19:22,250
science gets done or maybe the question

461
00:19:27,519 --> 00:19:25,039
is why so little of this science gets

462
00:19:30,970 --> 00:19:27,529
done because I think inevitably people

463
00:19:33,310 --> 00:19:30,980
will look at and go up 12 cases who

464
00:19:35,350 --> 00:19:33,320
cares aw you followed it up with 58 case

465
00:19:39,149 --> 00:19:35,360
oh you're so proud of that Julie what's

466
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:39,159
the big deal well give people a sense

467
00:19:48,419 --> 00:19:43,850
for what it takes to do this to the

468
00:19:51,580 --> 00:19:48,429
level of I guess control and careful

469
00:19:54,759 --> 00:19:51,590
scientific work that you're doing it's a

470
00:19:57,129 --> 00:19:54,769
major undertaking right oh yeah you know

471
00:19:59,950 --> 00:19:57,139
be doing this full-time now for 10 years

472
00:20:00,980 --> 00:19:59,960
and the team that we work with it work

473
00:20:03,530 --> 00:20:00,990
with the team of me

474
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:03,540
was on our research team called wind

475
00:20:06,830 --> 00:20:05,010
bridge certified research mediums

476
00:20:09,140 --> 00:20:06,840
they've gone through an extensive eight

477
00:20:13,100 --> 00:20:09,150
step screening training testing

478
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:13,110
procedure and we were able to to acquire

479
00:20:18,410 --> 00:20:17,970
that team through a grant and we figured

480
00:20:20,390 --> 00:20:18,420
it out

481
00:20:22,850 --> 00:20:20,400
we were not screening mediums anymore we

482
00:20:25,910 --> 00:20:22,860
figured it out that it costs about seven

483
00:20:28,220 --> 00:20:25,920
to ten thousand dollars per medium to

484
00:20:30,230 --> 00:20:28,230
screen because we had you up to train

485
00:20:32,419 --> 00:20:30,240
them and you have to acquire get to

486
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:32,429
sitters and it takes you have to screen

487
00:20:36,049 --> 00:20:34,290
four to seven sitters in order to get a

488
00:20:37,460 --> 00:20:36,059
pair of sitters or one medium to read

489
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:37,470
and they have to go through two

490
00:20:44,030 --> 00:20:41,490
different phases of testing and for the

491
00:20:46,460 --> 00:20:44,040
test readings and it's just an excessive

492
00:20:48,500 --> 00:20:46,470
amount of time and work to even put the

493
00:20:51,770 --> 00:20:48,510
team together and then now you have to

494
00:20:53,299 --> 00:20:51,780
do the studies on top of that so yeah

495
00:20:55,070 --> 00:20:53,309
it's not like you can just grab some

496
00:20:57,169 --> 00:20:55,080
people go hey read these people tell me

497
00:20:59,540 --> 00:20:57,179
about their dead person it's very

498
00:21:02,419 --> 00:20:59,550
complicated the screening of the mediums

499
00:21:04,070 --> 00:21:02,429
the screening of the sitters and the

500
00:21:07,130 --> 00:21:04,080
training of sitters on how to do the

501
00:21:09,980 --> 00:21:07,140
scoring and then about 25% of sitters

502
00:21:12,290 --> 00:21:09,990
don't ever return their scores to us so

503
00:21:14,030 --> 00:21:12,300
now we've put in you know the research

504
00:21:16,100 --> 00:21:14,040
team and the medium have put in all the

505
00:21:18,530 --> 00:21:16,110
time and then we don't have any data to

506
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:18,540
show for it and so that's very

507
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:20,850
frustrating because the people that are

508
00:21:27,290 --> 00:21:24,450
signing up I think to receive readings

509
00:21:29,450 --> 00:21:27,300
through research are people who want

510
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:29,460
free mediumship reading not necessarily

511
00:21:34,310 --> 00:21:32,490
people who want to move forward the

512
00:21:34,730 --> 00:21:34,320
science they don't really care about

513
00:21:36,140 --> 00:21:34,740
that

514
00:21:38,510 --> 00:21:36,150
they just want a free mediumship reading

515
00:21:41,060 --> 00:21:38,520
so when it isn't the because it's under

516
00:21:43,460 --> 00:21:41,070
these quintuple blind conditions it's

517
00:21:45,140 --> 00:21:43,470
not a reading like you get if you were

518
00:21:46,970 --> 00:21:45,150
you know on the phone with the medium

519
00:21:51,590 --> 00:21:46,980
yourself it's it's not as easy for her

520
00:21:54,049 --> 00:21:51,600
to do what she does and so it's not like

521
00:21:56,180 --> 00:21:54,059
the Wow that people are expecting I

522
00:21:57,950 --> 00:21:56,190
think it's Oh a lot of people don't just

523
00:21:59,990 --> 00:21:57,960
start they can't be bothered with

524
00:22:01,490 --> 00:22:00,000
providing us with the data that they

525
00:22:04,010 --> 00:22:01,500
agreed to and so that's super

526
00:22:05,810 --> 00:22:04,020
frustrating but yeah we would be very

527
00:22:08,030 --> 00:22:05,820
happy like this is a replication study

528
00:22:09,500 --> 00:22:08,040
this most recent one of a previously

529
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:09,510
published study right because in science

530
00:22:13,310 --> 00:22:10,770
it doesn't happen till it happens twice

531
00:22:14,450 --> 00:22:13,320
and we will be very happy if somebody

532
00:22:17,420 --> 00:22:14,460
else

533
00:22:20,690 --> 00:22:17,430
took this protocol it's laid out it's

534
00:22:22,850 --> 00:22:20,700
all done and and replicated it with

535
00:22:25,970 --> 00:22:22,860
other mediums in another lab that would

536
00:22:28,940 --> 00:22:25,980
be wonderful great so then let's talk

537
00:22:30,650 --> 00:22:28,950
about some of your more recent research

538
00:22:33,380 --> 00:22:30,660
because what you've done that's just

539
00:22:36,290 --> 00:22:33,390
amazingly fascinating is every time you

540
00:22:38,450 --> 00:22:36,300
go into a new area I'm like wow you know

541
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:38,460
I never thought of that but that's such

542
00:22:43,220 --> 00:22:40,890
an important question to ask and one of

543
00:22:46,210 --> 00:22:43,230
the questions that you seem to be asking

544
00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:46,220
with this latest round of research is

545
00:22:53,180 --> 00:22:50,370
what is the effect of all this on the

546
00:22:56,300 --> 00:22:53,190
mediums and you seem to be looking at

547
00:23:00,110 --> 00:22:56,310
the psychophysiological effects and

548
00:23:03,230 --> 00:23:00,120
finding out that mediums have some

549
00:23:06,170 --> 00:23:03,240
different health issues then non mediums

550
00:23:07,910 --> 00:23:06,180
do can you tell us briefly what that

551
00:23:11,330 --> 00:23:07,920
research is all about and what you've

552
00:23:13,730 --> 00:23:11,340
discovered I recently presented some

553
00:23:15,530 --> 00:23:13,740
results from this study at the Society

554
00:23:18,770 --> 00:23:15,540
for scientific exploration meeting and

555
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:18,780
what we were seeing was just anecdotally

556
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:20,610
the mediums on our team were reporting a

557
00:23:24,260 --> 00:23:23,130
lot of health issues and so we thought

558
00:23:25,820 --> 00:23:24,270
well maybe there's something about

559
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:25,830
performing a mediumship reading that

560
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:28,410
that has some negative effect on the

561
00:23:31,670 --> 00:23:30,330
body maybe you're you get pumped full of

562
00:23:35,510 --> 00:23:31,680
cortisol maybe you have a lot of

563
00:23:37,700 --> 00:23:35,520
adrenalin whatever so we we thought well

564
00:23:39,020 --> 00:23:37,710
we'll just do you know we're not sure

565
00:23:40,190 --> 00:23:39,030
what we're looking for because we don't

566
00:23:42,590 --> 00:23:40,200
know what it is we'll just sort of do

567
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:42,600
shotgun approach and we'll look at basic

568
00:23:46,730 --> 00:23:45,330
physiological measures heart rate blood

569
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:46,740
pressure that sort of thing

570
00:23:51,260 --> 00:23:49,410
and let me just interject because again

571
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:51,270
when we get into these things we have to

572
00:23:57,650 --> 00:23:54,330
take a big step back and say this would

573
00:23:59,720 --> 00:23:57,660
be unexplainable really from a

574
00:24:01,700 --> 00:23:59,730
scientific standpoint unless I guess you

575
00:24:03,500 --> 00:24:01,710
said that these people were somehow

576
00:24:07,130 --> 00:24:03,510
convincing themselves and that that

577
00:24:09,590 --> 00:24:07,140
somehow had some harmful placebo effect

578
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:09,600
negativeness ebo effect on them but

579
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:11,970
there really isn't any reason that this

580
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:14,250
group or population should have any

581
00:24:18,020 --> 00:24:16,170
physiological differences or maybe I'm

582
00:24:20,300 --> 00:24:18,030
jumping ahead maybe that's not really an

583
00:24:22,700 --> 00:24:20,310
issue or is it well we're not the first

584
00:24:24,860 --> 00:24:22,710
people to notice that there's a

585
00:24:26,990 --> 00:24:24,870
researcher that worked with some French

586
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:27,000
mediums in the 60s and he was reporting

587
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:28,490
seeing a lot of different

588
00:24:33,340 --> 00:24:30,530
sort of diseases and health complaints

589
00:24:35,950 --> 00:24:33,350
in that population and it's not it's not

590
00:24:39,310 --> 00:24:35,960
uncommon for I think that medium just in

591
00:24:41,020 --> 00:24:39,320
their own community recognize that as as

592
00:24:43,180 --> 00:24:41,030
an issue that there are a lot of health

593
00:24:45,700 --> 00:24:43,190
problems so we wanted to look at it what

594
00:24:48,010 --> 00:24:45,710
what might be causing it so we looked at

595
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:48,020
all these physiological parameters and I

596
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:52,010
think 28 different blood factors so we

597
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:54,170
took their blood so yeah that the

598
00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:55,970
mediums are on our team are really great

599
00:25:00,460 --> 00:24:57,410
they literally let me stab them with

600
00:25:04,180 --> 00:25:00,470
needles in the in the you know first the

601
00:25:07,299 --> 00:25:04,190
sake of science and so we took blood

602
00:25:09,010 --> 00:25:07,309
before and after mediumship reading and

603
00:25:11,020 --> 00:25:09,020
control condition and we looked at all

604
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:11,030
these different things and the

605
00:25:16,930 --> 00:25:12,770
interesting piece was we didn't find

606
00:25:18,460 --> 00:25:16,940
anything nothing was changed their you

607
00:25:20,140 --> 00:25:18,470
know their blood pressure didn't even go

608
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:20,150
up my husband who was taking all the

609
00:25:24,430 --> 00:25:22,610
physiology measurements my husband and

610
00:25:26,460 --> 00:25:24,440
research partner mark but could see he

611
00:25:28,419 --> 00:25:26,470
was saying I could have like a negative

612
00:25:29,950 --> 00:25:28,429
conversation with them and see a bigger

613
00:25:32,650 --> 00:25:29,960
physiological change you know I could

614
00:25:34,210 --> 00:25:32,660
have them describe a crappy situation of

615
00:25:36,390 --> 00:25:34,220
their past we would see a spike of

616
00:25:39,970 --> 00:25:36,400
something and we didn't see anything and

617
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:39,980
so that made me think well what else is

618
00:25:44,290 --> 00:25:42,650
what's going on here and so my aha

619
00:25:46,290 --> 00:25:44,300
because let me just interject so that

620
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:46,300
would kind of answer the first

621
00:25:50,710 --> 00:25:48,410
hypothesis that you would have I mean

622
00:25:52,330 --> 00:25:50,720
first you have to accept that this thing

623
00:25:53,799 --> 00:25:52,340
really happens as soon ominous

624
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:53,809
communication really happens you've

625
00:25:58,780 --> 00:25:55,970
already established for us that your

626
00:26:01,510 --> 00:25:58,790
research says that it does and then your

627
00:26:03,669 --> 00:26:01,520
next hypothesis might be the first one

628
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:03,679
people would come across is oh well the

629
00:26:10,060 --> 00:26:07,490
process of doing a medium reading you

630
00:26:12,850 --> 00:26:10,070
know screws what these people in a

631
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:12,860
physiological way that we can measure so

632
00:26:16,690 --> 00:26:14,570
that's what you sought out to answer

633
00:26:19,690 --> 00:26:16,700
first and the answer was no it there's

634
00:26:21,580 --> 00:26:19,700
no measurable change that happens while

635
00:26:23,530 --> 00:26:21,590
they're doing their medium reading do I

636
00:26:25,690 --> 00:26:23,540
have that right yeah and again you know

637
00:26:27,220 --> 00:26:25,700
there's limitations it's the first time

638
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:27,230
we've done anything so soon as a pilot

639
00:26:29,830 --> 00:26:28,250
study and so we only had five

640
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:29,840
participants family did one reading

641
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:32,090
maybe it doesn't have an effect until

642
00:26:35,500 --> 00:26:34,010
they do six readings in a day you know

643
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:35,510
and maybe it's cumulative maybe it

644
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:37,250
doesn't happen but the fact that we

645
00:26:41,740 --> 00:26:39,650
didn't see anything nothing increased

646
00:26:45,250 --> 00:26:41,750
again not blood pressure not heart

647
00:26:47,980 --> 00:26:45,260
not body temperature nothing and none of

648
00:26:49,450 --> 00:26:47,990
these we looked at neurotransmitters and

649
00:26:52,690 --> 00:26:49,460
epinephrine and norepinephrine and

650
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:52,700
dopamine and nothing changed

651
00:26:59,760 --> 00:26:57,290
so I cortisol and erythrocyte

652
00:27:01,750 --> 00:26:59,770
sedimentation rate sed rate which is a

653
00:27:04,180 --> 00:27:01,760
sort of gives you a sense of overall

654
00:27:08,950 --> 00:27:04,190
inflammatory state of the body and

655
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:08,960
nothing was happening so that made me

656
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:11,330
think well maybe it's not the actual

657
00:27:18,100 --> 00:27:14,770
process of doing a reading that's the

658
00:27:20,470 --> 00:27:18,110
causing disease in these people and they

659
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:20,480
do I did give them a health survey and

660
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:26,450
they do report primarily more autoimmune

661
00:27:32,140 --> 00:27:29,570
disorders so 16 of the mediums took this

662
00:27:33,910 --> 00:27:32,150
Health Survey and 13 of them reported

663
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:33,920
autoimmune disorders and so if you just

664
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:36,770
picked 16 women off the street of the

665
00:27:43,390 --> 00:27:40,210
same age that would be statistically

666
00:27:46,060 --> 00:27:43,400
almost impossible that 13 of them would

667
00:27:47,610 --> 00:27:46,070
have autoimmune disorders so that's very

668
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:47,620
interesting and the same thing with

669
00:27:52,650 --> 00:27:50,210
migraines the female population of

670
00:27:56,980 --> 00:27:52,660
mediums report a lot more than should be

671
00:28:01,240 --> 00:27:56,990
in this population of migraines and so I

672
00:28:04,660 --> 00:28:01,250
started to look into that and the my

673
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:04,670
current hypothesis is and this is I'm

674
00:28:08,740 --> 00:28:06,530
not the first person to say this is that

675
00:28:12,700 --> 00:28:08,750
they also have a lot of childhood trauma

676
00:28:14,620 --> 00:28:12,710
and there's a very clear association in

677
00:28:16,710 --> 00:28:14,630
mainstream research between childhood

678
00:28:18,970 --> 00:28:16,720
abuse and trauma and adult disease

679
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:18,980
including autoimmune disorders and

680
00:28:26,230 --> 00:28:21,770
migraines and among a million other

681
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:26,240
things so I surveyed them about child

682
00:28:31,210 --> 00:28:27,890
abuse and they also sort of scored off

683
00:28:33,610 --> 00:28:31,220
the charts in traumatic experiences in

684
00:28:36,090 --> 00:28:33,620
childhood so my current theory is that

685
00:28:40,270 --> 00:28:36,100
it's not mediumship that causes disease

686
00:28:43,860 --> 00:28:40,280
but it's that trauma causes disease and

687
00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:43,870
mediumship and again that's been

688
00:28:50,830 --> 00:28:47,510
hypothesized before that the having

689
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:50,840
trauma in your childhood makes you need

690
00:28:55,060 --> 00:28:53,090
psychic abilities because you need to be

691
00:28:55,500 --> 00:28:55,070
you don't know where dangers coming from

692
00:28:57,750 --> 00:28:55,510
or where

693
00:29:00,540 --> 00:28:57,760
it's coming and so you need to learn to

694
00:29:02,610 --> 00:29:00,550
have access to more non-local

695
00:29:05,370 --> 00:29:02,620
information be able to sort of see

696
00:29:07,350 --> 00:29:05,380
things in the future know you know how

697
00:29:10,230 --> 00:29:07,360
people are feeling and so you get more

698
00:29:14,100 --> 00:29:10,240
in touch with those other abilities and

699
00:29:15,810 --> 00:29:14,110
so and so right now I'm we sort of just

700
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:15,820
finished that study and I'm in the

701
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:18,010
process of getting the mediums feedback

702
00:29:23,550 --> 00:29:21,490
about what they think is that that's not

703
00:29:25,190 --> 00:29:23,560
surprising to them what that I'm making

704
00:29:29,430 --> 00:29:25,200
this connection between abuse and

705
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:29,440
mediumship and disease so again more

706
00:29:33,660 --> 00:29:31,210
research needs to take place that the

707
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:33,670
study that we're doing a two-year study

708
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:35,050
that just started at the beginning of

709
00:29:39,990 --> 00:29:37,690
July and it's a development and

710
00:29:42,750 --> 00:29:40,000
implementation of a grand survey of

711
00:29:44,670 --> 00:29:42,760
American mediums just anyone who

712
00:29:46,500 --> 00:29:44,680
considers themselves a medium we want to

713
00:29:48,660 --> 00:29:46,510
fill out our survey once we develop it

714
00:29:51,270 --> 00:29:48,670
and to see if these sort of trends in

715
00:29:54,330 --> 00:29:51,280
disease and trauma exist in the larger

716
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:54,340
population great stuff because I want to

717
00:29:59,460 --> 00:29:56,530
switch over to this other great study

718
00:30:03,240 --> 00:29:59,470
that you did and I love this continuing

719
00:30:07,170 --> 00:30:03,250
bonds perspective and the paradigm shift

720
00:30:11,190 --> 00:30:07,180
that is implied by that I think it's

721
00:30:11,550 --> 00:30:11,200
just so preciously skeptical all over it

722
00:30:14,250 --> 00:30:11,560
you know

723
00:30:16,860 --> 00:30:14,260
so let me kind of lead into that and

724
00:30:21,750 --> 00:30:16,870
let's talk about folks and folks who are

725
00:30:23,340 --> 00:30:21,760
listening this is a paper where is this

726
00:30:26,790 --> 00:30:23,350
paper being published the possible

727
00:30:29,790 --> 00:30:26,800
effects of bereavement of assisted after

728
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:29,800
death communication during readings with

729
00:30:36,900 --> 00:30:33,330
psychic mediums a continuing bond

730
00:30:39,930 --> 00:30:36,910
perspective where is this published

731
00:30:41,900 --> 00:30:39,940
Julie this Journal article was in the in

732
00:30:46,110 --> 00:30:41,910
omega the journal of death and dying

733
00:30:49,230 --> 00:30:46,120
awesome here is Mike and question if you

734
00:30:49,950 --> 00:30:49,240
will Julie look Julie if you've lost the

735
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:49,960
loved one

736
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:52,810
you're gonna grieve you're gonna agree

737
00:30:57,500 --> 00:30:55,090
for a long time it's probably gonna have

738
00:31:00,540 --> 00:30:57,510
severe mental and physical health

739
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:00,550
consequences but that's all we can do

740
00:31:05,790 --> 00:31:03,730
you've lost them forever you just have

741
00:31:09,150 --> 00:31:05,800
to deal with it I mean science has told

742
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:09,160
us conclusively over and over again the

743
00:31:15,450 --> 00:31:12,010
we are physical beings that we're in

744
00:31:18,270 --> 00:31:15,460
essentially biological robots when our

745
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:18,280
brain dies our mind eyes nothing remains

746
00:31:24,270 --> 00:31:21,610
so don't we just have to get over it why

747
00:31:26,940 --> 00:31:24,280
would we want to think otherwise might

748
00:31:29,310 --> 00:31:26,950
we even begin to think otherwise in

749
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:29,320
dealing with this kind of loss it's

750
00:31:34,050 --> 00:31:31,450
actually not the viewpoint of the mental

751
00:31:37,770 --> 00:31:34,060
health community so like throughout the

752
00:31:40,470 --> 00:31:37,780
50s that was the understanding the grief

753
00:31:41,550 --> 00:31:40,480
was almost pathological and you best

754
00:31:43,260 --> 00:31:41,560
just get over it

755
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:43,270
you best accept that the person is gone

756
00:31:49,170 --> 00:31:46,090
and move on and then in like starting in

757
00:31:52,260 --> 00:31:49,180
the 80s the clinical community was like

758
00:31:54,180 --> 00:31:52,270
yeah that's not helping people and most

759
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:54,190
people can get through grief grief it's

760
00:31:59,520 --> 00:31:56,530
a totally natural process it's normal

761
00:32:01,800 --> 00:31:59,530
for humans and animals and most people

762
00:32:03,990 --> 00:32:01,810
like eighty five percent of people can

763
00:32:05,700 --> 00:32:04,000
get through it with their own resources

764
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:05,710
that they have but fifteen percent of

765
00:32:10,260 --> 00:32:07,690
the time it can turn into what's called

766
00:32:13,350 --> 00:32:10,270
traumatic or prolonged grief which can

767
00:32:16,290 --> 00:32:13,360
result in physical problems even you

768
00:32:19,290 --> 00:32:16,300
know like we were saying before that

769
00:32:23,340 --> 00:32:19,300
mental issues can have physical disease

770
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:23,350
effects so in the 80s this new model of

771
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:26,050
grief was developed called continuing

772
00:32:33,510 --> 00:32:31,810
bonds and and that model is not that you

773
00:32:35,540 --> 00:32:33,520
have to accept the loss and that the

774
00:32:37,860 --> 00:32:35,550
person is gone but that you have to just

775
00:32:40,050 --> 00:32:37,870
change your definition of their

776
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:40,060
relationship so it's changing it from

777
00:32:44,010 --> 00:32:42,730
that the person it is that you have a

778
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:44,020
physical bond to the person they're

779
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:45,610
physically present to that you have a

780
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:47,290
spiritual bond they're spiritually

781
00:32:52,410 --> 00:32:49,810
present and they equate it so like when

782
00:32:54,510 --> 00:32:52,420
when babies are developing they they

783
00:32:56,220 --> 00:32:54,520
need to see the mommy at all times and

784
00:32:58,050 --> 00:32:56,230
then if the mommy leaves the room they

785
00:32:59,460 --> 00:32:58,060
cry and they freak out but there comes a

786
00:33:00,840 --> 00:32:59,470
point in their development where when

787
00:33:02,790 --> 00:33:00,850
the mommy leaves the room they know the

788
00:33:05,220 --> 00:33:02,800
mommy still exists she's just in the

789
00:33:07,140 --> 00:33:05,230
other room so that's sort of that in

790
00:33:10,380 --> 00:33:07,150
childhood development that's sort of the

791
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:10,390
continuing bonds that so just like that

792
00:33:13,590 --> 00:33:12,250
when someone dies we just have to know

793
00:33:15,540 --> 00:33:13,600
that we can't see them and they're not

794
00:33:17,340 --> 00:33:15,550
physically here they're still in our

795
00:33:18,900 --> 00:33:17,350
life and we still have a relationship

796
00:33:22,629 --> 00:33:18,910
with them and so that's the continuing

797
00:33:25,249 --> 00:33:22,639
bonds model which is the current sort of

798
00:33:28,759 --> 00:33:25,259
model of grief that the clinical

799
00:33:31,369 --> 00:33:28,769
community uses but your research is

800
00:33:33,950 --> 00:33:31,379
taking that in a whole different

801
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:33,960
direction because when you link up with

802
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:36,570
the fact that psychologists and

803
00:33:41,330 --> 00:33:39,090
caregivers people who deal with the

804
00:33:44,060 --> 00:33:41,340
grieving have made the leap to say

805
00:33:45,830 --> 00:33:44,070
pragmatically practically we might want

806
00:33:49,490 --> 00:33:45,840
to seek this other path

807
00:33:51,740 --> 00:33:49,500
there's really been no scientific basis

808
00:33:54,289 --> 00:33:51,750
for taking that path other than to say

809
00:33:58,240 --> 00:33:54,299
let's just choose this set of beliefs

810
00:34:01,159 --> 00:33:58,250
this set of delusional thinking over our

811
00:34:03,139 --> 00:34:01,169
solid evidence that that really isn't so

812
00:34:05,389 --> 00:34:03,149
but what you seem to be doing when you

813
00:34:07,940 --> 00:34:05,399
link it up to your research is say hey

814
00:34:11,240 --> 00:34:07,950
wait a minute maybe there's some reason

815
00:34:14,780 --> 00:34:11,250
to actually put some serious scientific

816
00:34:17,809 --> 00:34:14,790
weight into this continued bond idea

817
00:34:19,430 --> 00:34:17,819
right well there's been I'm not the

818
00:34:22,879 --> 00:34:19,440
first one to make that leap there's been

819
00:34:25,849 --> 00:34:22,889
a lot of research examining the

820
00:34:28,369 --> 00:34:25,859
relationship between spontaneous after

821
00:34:30,470 --> 00:34:28,379
death communication and bereavement and

822
00:34:32,389 --> 00:34:30,480
the process of grief so there's been

823
00:34:34,460 --> 00:34:32,399
plenty of research demonstrating that

824
00:34:36,109 --> 00:34:34,470
when people have spontaneous experiences

825
00:34:38,569 --> 00:34:36,119
of their deceased loved one that it

826
00:34:41,240 --> 00:34:38,579
improves their grief process and so the

827
00:34:42,770 --> 00:34:41,250
leap that I'm making is well when you

828
00:34:44,089 --> 00:34:42,780
communicate with your deceased loved one

829
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:44,099
through a mediumship reading which we

830
00:34:48,309 --> 00:34:46,050
call assisted after death communication

831
00:34:50,869 --> 00:34:48,319
that should have the same effects as

832
00:34:52,909 --> 00:34:50,879
spontaneous after death communication

833
00:34:55,460 --> 00:34:52,919
which has been demonstrated to greatly

834
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:55,470
improve grief so that's the that's the

835
00:34:59,630 --> 00:34:57,450
step that I'm taking and now we just

836
00:35:02,030 --> 00:34:59,640
need to do the research that

837
00:35:04,700 --> 00:35:02,040
demonstrates that we did a pilot

838
00:35:06,589 --> 00:35:04,710
exploratory study where we surveyed

839
00:35:08,089 --> 00:35:06,599
people about their recollections of

840
00:35:09,980 --> 00:35:08,099
their experiences of grief before and

841
00:35:12,620 --> 00:35:09,990
after reading and they reported that it

842
00:35:14,300 --> 00:35:12,630
was that they it did improve their grief

843
00:35:15,950 --> 00:35:14,310
and anecdotally that's what we're

844
00:35:17,720 --> 00:35:15,960
hearing and there's a lot of people in

845
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:17,730
the world right now using it as sort of

846
00:35:22,970 --> 00:35:21,450
a self prescribed treatment option when

847
00:35:26,930 --> 00:35:22,980
they're having trouble dealing with

848
00:35:29,780 --> 00:35:26,940
their grief to go to a medium so the

849
00:35:31,670 --> 00:35:29,790
next step is my background is in

850
00:35:34,099 --> 00:35:31,680
pharmacology and so I know how to design

851
00:35:35,630 --> 00:35:34,109
a drug trial so I designed a drug trial

852
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:35,640
except instead of a drug it's a

853
00:35:38,450 --> 00:35:36,210
mediumship

854
00:35:40,339 --> 00:35:38,460
and so it's a clinical trial in which

855
00:35:43,460 --> 00:35:40,349
people receive a mediumship reading or

856
00:35:45,710 --> 00:35:43,470
are in a waitlist control group and we

857
00:35:47,599 --> 00:35:45,720
look using standardized instruments

858
00:35:49,660 --> 00:35:47,609
questionnaires their grief their level

859
00:35:52,940 --> 00:35:49,670
of grief before and after a reading

860
00:35:54,260 --> 00:35:52,950
versus the control waitlist group so

861
00:35:55,790 --> 00:35:54,270
we'll see and they're you know that's

862
00:35:57,410 --> 00:35:55,800
just the first step in the research it

863
00:35:59,540 --> 00:35:57,420
might be that there are only certain

864
00:36:01,160 --> 00:35:59,550
kinds of grief or only certain kinds of

865
00:36:03,740 --> 00:36:01,170
loss or only certain kinds of people

866
00:36:04,910 --> 00:36:03,750
that can benefit from a mediumship

867
00:36:06,799 --> 00:36:04,920
reading but we need to do the research

868
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:06,809
to figure that out it might not be

869
00:36:12,799 --> 00:36:10,170
beneficial to everybody and we need to

870
00:36:14,780 --> 00:36:12,809
figure out who it's good for and when

871
00:36:17,569 --> 00:36:14,790
and all of the questions that come next

872
00:36:19,790 --> 00:36:17,579
if it is we selected demonstrate it is

873
00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:19,800
beneficial even to a portion of the

874
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:23,250
population awesome so rather than making

875
00:36:29,299 --> 00:36:25,770
some more advanced depleted uranium

876
00:36:32,329 --> 00:36:29,309
bombs maybe we should put a few million

877
00:36:36,799 --> 00:36:32,339
dollars behind this research and we can

878
00:36:38,599 --> 00:36:36,809
generate 50 or 20 PhD papers out of what

879
00:36:41,059 --> 00:36:38,609
you just outlined I mean there's a lot

880
00:36:42,890 --> 00:36:41,069
of work to be done there but as the

881
00:36:44,900 --> 00:36:42,900
questions the research questions that

882
00:36:48,829 --> 00:36:44,910
you just rolled off the top of your head

883
00:36:50,780 --> 00:36:48,839
are just tremendously important to so

884
00:36:52,700 --> 00:36:50,790
many people it's just stunning that this

885
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:52,710
kind of research doesn't get done and

886
00:36:58,309 --> 00:36:55,890
that you have to work so hard to advance

887
00:37:00,650 --> 00:36:58,319
these pilot studies well the other piece

888
00:37:02,839 --> 00:37:00,660
of it is that the different meta

889
00:37:05,510 --> 00:37:02,849
analyses and research have shown that

890
00:37:08,150 --> 00:37:05,520
traditional grief counseling is no

891
00:37:08,510 --> 00:37:08,160
better for people often than the passage

892
00:37:10,549 --> 00:37:08,520
of time

893
00:37:11,900 --> 00:37:10,559
everybody gets better in a grief study

894
00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:11,910
because time has passed

895
00:37:15,829 --> 00:37:14,250
everybody improves in a grief study just

896
00:37:19,130 --> 00:37:15,839
because the passage of time has occurred

897
00:37:21,710 --> 00:37:19,140
but research has shown that traditional

898
00:37:23,240 --> 00:37:21,720
psychotherapy doesn't really help grief

899
00:37:24,980 --> 00:37:23,250
which would make sense because our

900
00:37:26,780 --> 00:37:24,990
understanding of how grief works and

901
00:37:28,819 --> 00:37:26,790
this under this continuing bonds

902
00:37:31,220 --> 00:37:28,829
paradigm is that you have to demonstrate

903
00:37:32,780 --> 00:37:31,230
that your bond with the person continues

904
00:37:36,289 --> 00:37:32,790
even though they're dead how could a

905
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:36,299
counselor possibly make that happen that

906
00:37:42,109 --> 00:37:38,970
way especially especially a counselor

907
00:37:45,859 --> 00:37:42,119
that's been indoctrinated in a system

908
00:37:48,410 --> 00:37:45,869
that completely denies the existence of

909
00:37:49,270 --> 00:37:48,420
a mind as anything other than an

910
00:37:51,370 --> 00:37:49,280
illusion of

911
00:37:54,490 --> 00:37:51,380
consciousness and certainly there's

912
00:37:56,860 --> 00:37:54,500
therapists that don't militantly hold to

913
00:38:00,460 --> 00:37:56,870
that line but when they don't they're

914
00:38:02,410 --> 00:38:00,470
really overturning their education for

915
00:38:04,300 --> 00:38:02,420
the most part that didn't doctrine him

916
00:38:06,820 --> 00:38:04,310
in that way so I think it's it's only

917
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:06,830
natural that even if they're open to

918
00:38:10,570 --> 00:38:08,330
that it has to create a certain

919
00:38:12,220 --> 00:38:10,580
dissidents with them in terms of what

920
00:38:13,810 --> 00:38:12,230
they've the way they were brought up and

921
00:38:16,330 --> 00:38:13,820
the way they were educated with what

922
00:38:18,220 --> 00:38:16,340
they're saying yeah you know our opinion

923
00:38:20,170 --> 00:38:18,230
is nobody wants us to do this clinical

924
00:38:21,850 --> 00:38:20,180
trial because if we don't show anything

925
00:38:23,290 --> 00:38:21,860
the mediums are going to be mad if we do

926
00:38:25,390 --> 00:38:23,300
show something that clinicians are going

927
00:38:27,340 --> 00:38:25,400
to be mad so nobody wants to study to

928
00:38:29,220 --> 00:38:27,350
take place that's our opinion well I

929
00:38:32,050 --> 00:38:29,230
have no data to support that hypothesis

930
00:38:33,460 --> 00:38:32,060
but that's what people are finding that

931
00:38:35,770 --> 00:38:33,470
in this research that I did for this

932
00:38:38,170 --> 00:38:35,780
article that's what researchers are

933
00:38:40,990 --> 00:38:38,180
finding is that people are having bad

934
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:41,000
experiences with people clinicians who

935
00:38:47,500 --> 00:38:44,690
are validating their experiences as real

936
00:38:52,180 --> 00:38:47,510
and even in our questionnaire study our

937
00:38:54,220 --> 00:38:52,190
survey study we asked people a subset of

938
00:38:56,260 --> 00:38:54,230
we looked at we asked 83 people about

939
00:38:57,610 --> 00:38:56,270
their experiences with grief before and

940
00:39:00,220 --> 00:38:57,620
after meaning of reading in a subset of

941
00:39:02,140 --> 00:39:00,230
them 29 had also gone to a mental health

942
00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:02,150
professional we asked them about their

943
00:39:08,770 --> 00:39:04,730
experiences there as well and I remember

944
00:39:12,010 --> 00:39:08,780
one of the comments was when my initial

945
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:12,020
clinician didn't validate the experience

946
00:39:15,790 --> 00:39:14,210
that I'd had or and might you know need

947
00:39:19,180 --> 00:39:15,800
to see a medium I went and found someone

948
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:19,190
who did and so people that's that's what

949
00:39:25,150 --> 00:39:21,290
creates a threshold in healthcare is

950
00:39:26,770 --> 00:39:25,160
that the patients are demanding that

951
00:39:29,590 --> 00:39:26,780
people be knowledgeable and that's the

952
00:39:30,790 --> 00:39:29,600
call to action that I brought forth in

953
00:39:32,830 --> 00:39:30,800
this paper was close

954
00:39:34,450 --> 00:39:32,840
people are getting readings and

955
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:34,460
clinicians need to be aware of the

956
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:36,650
reality of mediumship not just what

957
00:39:41,290 --> 00:39:38,810
they're seeing portrayed on TV which is

958
00:39:43,450 --> 00:39:41,300
not actual mediumship how it exists in

959
00:39:46,690 --> 00:39:43,460
the real world I want to switch gears

960
00:39:47,730 --> 00:39:46,700
now and talk about this next paper that

961
00:39:51,490 --> 00:39:47,740
you sent me

962
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:51,500
anomalous information reception by

963
00:39:55,350 --> 00:39:54,290
research mediums under blinded

964
00:39:59,580 --> 00:39:55,360
conditions

965
00:40:02,800 --> 00:39:59,590
number two the return of sequel

966
00:40:05,590 --> 00:40:02,810
replication and extension so

967
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:05,600
this is as it said a replication and

968
00:40:10,090 --> 00:40:08,810
extension of your earlier work and I

969
00:40:13,750 --> 00:40:10,100
want you to tell folks a little bit

970
00:40:15,250 --> 00:40:13,760
about what you've done why you had we

971
00:40:17,950 --> 00:40:15,260
already talked about this I already

972
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:17,960
talked about this you did but you want

973
00:40:24,010 --> 00:40:21,650
it twice and you can pick yeah III wanna

974
00:40:25,390 --> 00:40:24,020
let me see if I can tee it up a tiny bit

975
00:40:28,450 --> 00:40:25,400
differently and then I'll just kind of

976
00:40:30,310 --> 00:40:28,460
cut and paste it a little bit but the

977
00:40:32,350 --> 00:40:30,320
other thing that I we should talk about

978
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:32,360
in this paper is this criticism about

979
00:40:37,060 --> 00:40:34,610
the names because that's your community

980
00:40:40,750 --> 00:40:37,070
is big on that so we should make sure we

981
00:40:42,670 --> 00:40:40,760
talk about that talk about it now tell

982
00:40:46,330 --> 00:40:42,680
me tell me tell me what you think you

983
00:40:48,730 --> 00:40:46,340
know because we actually did a little I

984
00:40:50,700 --> 00:40:48,740
want to say and want to say study what

985
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:50,710
would we say a little demonstration and

986
00:40:54,790 --> 00:40:53,090
that's one of the problems we ran into

987
00:40:58,060 --> 00:40:54,800
so I think what you're alluding to is

988
00:41:01,510 --> 00:40:58,070
whenever you do these experiments the

989
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:01,520
one bit of information you give the

990
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:05,570
medium is a name and it turns out you

991
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:07,010
got to be careful with those names

992
00:41:12,850 --> 00:41:10,610
because they can tie back to age or have

993
00:41:14,980 --> 00:41:12,860
a strong correlation with someone's age

994
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:14,990
if I say Betsy you know then I'm

995
00:41:19,150 --> 00:41:16,370
properly dealing with someone who's

996
00:41:22,090 --> 00:41:19,160
older that's not a very common name

997
00:41:25,810 --> 00:41:22,100
versus my best friend in junior high was

998
00:41:27,700 --> 00:41:25,820
named Betsy I think it depends and yeah

999
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:27,710
let's talk about it the names that we

1000
00:41:34,900 --> 00:41:32,690
use I looked up the theory is that you

1001
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:34,910
can learn that you can know a lot about

1002
00:41:38,740 --> 00:41:36,890
people but just by the name and so I

1003
00:41:41,950 --> 00:41:38,750
looked at some of the names that we were

1004
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:41,960
using in in this study and they included

1005
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:44,690
I have a list here james michael linda

1006
00:41:48,910 --> 00:41:46,850
barbara matthew margaret and john and

1007
00:41:51,850 --> 00:41:48,920
all of those names have been in the top

1008
00:41:54,460 --> 00:41:51,860
1,000 baby names since 1880 which is

1009
00:41:57,700 --> 00:41:54,470
when they first started looking at that

1010
00:41:59,620 --> 00:41:57,710
so there's no way to tell because

1011
00:42:02,170 --> 00:41:59,630
they're just ubiquitous than these names

1012
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:02,180
you know they're just names a lot of

1013
00:42:06,010 --> 00:42:04,610
people have and you can't really tell

1014
00:42:08,050 --> 00:42:06,020
when they reach the height of their

1015
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:08,060
popularity like you could yeah

1016
00:42:12,190 --> 00:42:10,370
names like Britney and Mildred that's

1017
00:42:16,210 --> 00:42:12,200
brought you up you know the probability

1018
00:42:19,990 --> 00:42:17,890
you can maybe get a little information

1019
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:20,000
but the names art names like that there

1020
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:22,130
are these very common names that have

1021
00:42:28,810 --> 00:42:26,330
been popular for since 1880 and the

1022
00:42:30,580 --> 00:42:28,820
other piece is that we're asking very

1023
00:42:31,990 --> 00:42:30,590
specific questions during the reading so

1024
00:42:35,470 --> 00:42:32,000
it give the medium the name and then we

1025
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:35,480
ask them to describe the physical

1026
00:42:40,300 --> 00:42:38,690
description of the person describe their

1027
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:40,310
personality what were their hobbies or

1028
00:42:43,599 --> 00:42:41,810
interests what was their cause of death

1029
00:42:46,240 --> 00:42:43,609
and what specific messages did they have

1030
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:46,250
for the absent sitter and so with those

1031
00:42:49,210 --> 00:42:47,930
names like to be able to describe

1032
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:49,220
something meaningful about the

1033
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:51,410
relationship like that one that last

1034
00:42:55,240 --> 00:42:53,210
question in and of itself how are you

1035
00:42:57,970 --> 00:42:55,250
going to know what Betsy has to say to

1036
00:42:59,680 --> 00:42:57,980
her deceased or to her living loved one

1037
00:43:01,540 --> 00:42:59,690
and that's the other piece ooh is that

1038
00:43:07,750 --> 00:43:01,550
these people could have died

1039
00:43:09,940 --> 00:43:07,760
at any at any age so like you know if

1040
00:43:11,710 --> 00:43:09,950
there's like someone named John that

1041
00:43:14,530 --> 00:43:11,720
could be like a ten year old John that

1042
00:43:16,510 --> 00:43:14,540
died in 1960 and it could be like eighty

1043
00:43:19,900 --> 00:43:16,520
year old John that died two years ago

1044
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:19,910
and so it's it can't tell and this I

1045
00:43:24,490 --> 00:43:22,010
don't know what demonstration you did

1046
00:43:27,070 --> 00:43:24,500
but we all have mediumistic ability so

1047
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:27,080
to give quote/unquote non mediums these

1048
00:43:30,910 --> 00:43:28,970
name to say answer these questions about

1049
00:43:33,130 --> 00:43:30,920
this person they could be using

1050
00:43:34,810 --> 00:43:33,140
mediumship ability to get the

1051
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:34,820
information from the actual Betsy or the

1052
00:43:37,990 --> 00:43:36,650
actual John yeah it's like prayer

1053
00:43:40,630 --> 00:43:38,000
research right I mean what's your

1054
00:43:44,820 --> 00:43:40,640
control group by somebody who isn't

1055
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:44,830
being prayed for right people don't wish

1056
00:43:48,790 --> 00:43:47,330
so you can't really control for it you

1057
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:48,800
know in these again these names are very

1058
00:43:52,720 --> 00:43:50,210
ubiquitous and right if you get the name

1059
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:52,730
John like are you describing John McCain

1060
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:55,010
or John Lennon like those are very

1061
00:43:58,630 --> 00:43:56,930
different any other name that I or John

1062
00:44:01,089 --> 00:43:58,640
out of the by you know John oh one of

1063
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:01,099
the disciples of Jesus right right

1064
00:44:05,710 --> 00:44:03,290
or like Charles Charles Barkley Charles

1065
00:44:07,329 --> 00:44:05,720
Manson Prince Charles yeah you know or

1066
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:07,339
and the other one I use George's are so

1067
00:44:12,070 --> 00:44:09,530
many George's of all different races and

1068
00:44:14,980 --> 00:44:12,080
ages and these none of these people are

1069
00:44:17,380 --> 00:44:14,990
dead but George Clinton George Hamilton

1070
00:44:19,390 --> 00:44:17,390
George Carlin George Street George Bush

1071
00:44:21,220 --> 00:44:19,400
either one George Noory George Foreman

1072
00:44:23,849 --> 00:44:21,230
George Washington all you have is the

1073
00:44:26,710 --> 00:44:23,859
name George and now you have to describe

1074
00:44:29,860 --> 00:44:26,720
personality physical description hobbies

1075
00:44:31,780 --> 00:44:29,870
cause of death messages for the sitter

1076
00:44:34,390 --> 00:44:31,790
you and nineteen of your friends have to

1077
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:34,400
do that to a specifically significant

1078
00:44:41,500 --> 00:44:38,090
degree 58 times and that gets to the

1079
00:44:43,570 --> 00:44:41,510
real question I guess you know implied

1080
00:44:45,790 --> 00:44:43,580
in this whole thing that we kind of

1081
00:44:49,390 --> 00:44:45,800
dance around with and that's that why

1082
00:44:51,940 --> 00:44:49,400
isn't this research more widely accepted

1083
00:44:54,370 --> 00:44:51,950
so you're doing you know research

1084
00:44:56,170 --> 00:44:54,380
experiment number two you're trying to

1085
00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:56,180
get people to jump on the bandwagon as

1086
00:45:00,610 --> 00:44:57,530
you just described in sit here I've laid

1087
00:45:04,630 --> 00:45:00,620
it all out go replicate it but there is

1088
00:45:08,530 --> 00:45:04,640
this underlying resistance to it because

1089
00:45:12,430 --> 00:45:08,540
it is so threatening to science as we

1090
00:45:15,610 --> 00:45:12,440
know it so you know what is the answer

1091
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:15,620
your answer seems to be more good

1092
00:45:20,740 --> 00:45:18,050
research and that science will prevail

1093
00:45:22,990 --> 00:45:20,750
but do you really think that's the way

1094
00:45:25,780 --> 00:45:23,000
this thing plays out is anyone really

1095
00:45:28,030 --> 00:45:25,790
gonna is anyone in the scientific

1096
00:45:32,020 --> 00:45:28,040
quote/unquote community gonna roll over

1097
00:45:35,770 --> 00:45:32,030
and say ah well there it is you know

1098
00:45:37,870 --> 00:45:35,780
what I don't care because this this is a

1099
00:45:39,460 --> 00:45:37,880
replication study we've showed it that

1100
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:39,470
it occurs twice now to different

1101
00:45:43,990 --> 00:45:42,650
populations of mediums and you know

1102
00:45:45,820 --> 00:45:44,000
we're the wind bridge Institute for

1103
00:45:49,300 --> 00:45:45,830
Applied Research at the end of the day

1104
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:49,310
we care about how this affects people's

1105
00:45:54,490 --> 00:45:51,410
daily lives and we've talked about grief

1106
00:45:56,710 --> 00:45:54,500
and the possible effect of mediumship

1107
00:45:58,450 --> 00:45:56,720
readings on the bereaved and this

1108
00:46:00,640 --> 00:45:58,460
research demonstrates that they're not

1109
00:46:02,050 --> 00:46:00,650
it's possible that they're not just

1110
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:02,060
doing cold reading that it's not just

1111
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:03,770
rater bias so they're not engaged in

1112
00:46:08,020 --> 00:46:05,810
fraud so something's happening and

1113
00:46:10,900 --> 00:46:08,030
people are engaged in it and it's making

1114
00:46:13,270 --> 00:46:10,910
them feel better so let's tackle that

1115
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:13,280
let's go down that road that's the

1116
00:46:17,650 --> 00:46:15,290
important piece as a scientific

1117
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:17,660
community and as a society that we need

1118
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:20,330
to be following as the final thing that

1119
00:46:26,470 --> 00:46:23,450
we might want to talk about please tell

1120
00:46:29,170 --> 00:46:26,480
folks what's going on with this

1121
00:46:32,230 --> 00:46:29,180
conference that you sent me the link to

1122
00:46:34,150 --> 00:46:32,240
the final transition conference kind of

1123
00:46:36,340 --> 00:46:34,160
an interesting name science death and

1124
00:46:38,830 --> 00:46:36,350
consciousness right there in your

1125
00:46:40,750 --> 00:46:38,840
hometown of Tucson tell folks about that

1126
00:46:42,610 --> 00:46:40,760
I'm so excited to be part of this

1127
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:42,620
conference it's the it's the first time

1128
00:46:46,010 --> 00:46:43,770
they're hoping to do

1129
00:46:47,870 --> 00:46:46,020
we do the same conference the final

1130
00:46:49,940 --> 00:46:47,880
transition are we sure it's the final

1131
00:46:51,830 --> 00:46:49,950
transition I don't know about that title

1132
00:46:53,660 --> 00:46:51,840
but let's run with it that's the title

1133
00:46:55,250 --> 00:46:53,670
of it right like are there more

1134
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:55,260
transitions and afterlife we don't know

1135
00:46:58,520 --> 00:46:56,850
right it's fine our current

1136
00:47:00,560 --> 00:46:58,530
understanding perhaps its final but it

1137
00:47:03,230 --> 00:47:00,570
might not be so they're doing a

1138
00:47:04,910 --> 00:47:03,240
different take on it that I've never

1139
00:47:07,550 --> 00:47:04,920
seen before and I'm so excited to be

1140
00:47:10,130 --> 00:47:07,560
part of it where they have she sent out

1141
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:10,140
a press release today though Lynn the

1142
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:12,570
woman who's organizing it and she was

1143
00:47:16,010 --> 00:47:14,610
calling the you know when when you

1144
00:47:18,350 --> 00:47:16,020
parents and children sit down to have

1145
00:47:20,470 --> 00:47:18,360
the talk it's not about sex anymore it's

1146
00:47:22,790 --> 00:47:20,480
about death and they're both adults and

1147
00:47:24,950 --> 00:47:22,800
so you know with the baby boomer

1148
00:47:26,810 --> 00:47:24,960
generation starting to dive more and

1149
00:47:30,860 --> 00:47:26,820
more people are getting faced with death

1150
00:47:32,510 --> 00:47:30,870
and dying and it's and it's sort of

1151
00:47:34,070 --> 00:47:32,520
bubbling up to the surface like we have

1152
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:34,080
to talk about it now I can't we can't

1153
00:47:38,810 --> 00:47:35,850
push it under anymore we have to talk

1154
00:47:40,340 --> 00:47:38,820
about it and this conference is bringing

1155
00:47:41,690 --> 00:47:40,350
together you know a lot of times I talk

1156
00:47:43,070 --> 00:47:41,700
at the conference at the same it's me in

1157
00:47:45,710 --> 00:47:43,080
the same five people we're saying the

1158
00:47:50,270 --> 00:47:45,720
same things and this is a different

1159
00:47:52,900 --> 00:47:50,280
group it's health care providers doctors

1160
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:52,910
and nurses and Hospice clinicians

1161
00:47:58,370 --> 00:47:55,770
talking about the process of death and

1162
00:48:01,190 --> 00:47:58,380
dying and what we need to know and then

1163
00:48:05,390 --> 00:48:01,200
it transitions no pun intended into

1164
00:48:08,330 --> 00:48:05,400
research about what happens after we die

1165
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:08,340
so like Jim Tucker is talking about his

1166
00:48:12,500 --> 00:48:10,410
research with children who remember past

1167
00:48:13,940 --> 00:48:12,510
lives I'm talking about all of these

1168
00:48:15,890 --> 00:48:13,950
different types of after death

1169
00:48:17,810 --> 00:48:15,900
communication spontaneous induced and

1170
00:48:20,720 --> 00:48:17,820
assisted after death communication and

1171
00:48:23,270 --> 00:48:20,730
its role in grief Peter Fenwick's there

1172
00:48:24,470 --> 00:48:23,280
Larry Dossey and Barbara deep in Vail

1173
00:48:27,350 --> 00:48:24,480
almost talking about near-death

1174
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:27,360
experiences so it's it's sort of going

1175
00:48:31,910 --> 00:48:30,330
and the order of the speakers during the

1176
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:31,920
conference goes in that order

1177
00:48:37,610 --> 00:48:35,010
you know like so you're dying so someone

1178
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:37,620
has died so you have had experience with

1179
00:48:41,900 --> 00:48:39,570
someone who has died and so it goes sort

1180
00:48:43,330 --> 00:48:41,910
of chronologically which is it so really

1181
00:48:47,630 --> 00:48:43,340
again it's just a really unique

1182
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:47,640
conference in this unique way that it's

1183
00:48:53,420 --> 00:48:51,210
laid out and it really it's a dogma free

1184
00:48:55,580 --> 00:48:53,430
discussion about death dying and what

1185
00:48:57,230 --> 00:48:55,590
may come next awesome

1186
00:48:59,420 --> 00:48:57,240
yeah I can see where that with

1187
00:49:02,630 --> 00:48:59,430
be necessary to kind of arm the

1188
00:49:04,220 --> 00:49:02,640
frontline kind of soldiers with the the

1189
00:49:07,130 --> 00:49:04,230
data that they need the science they

1190
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:07,140
need to kind of spread that out that's

1191
00:49:11,780 --> 00:49:09,330
really sounds great for a long time I've

1192
00:49:14,990 --> 00:49:11,790
been lamenting that we spend so much

1193
00:49:17,240 --> 00:49:15,000
effort in our society training pregnant

1194
00:49:19,700 --> 00:49:17,250
women on what to expect giving birth and

1195
00:49:21,470 --> 00:49:19,710
no but we don't train people at all

1196
00:49:23,780 --> 00:49:21,480
about what to expect when they're dying

1197
00:49:25,910 --> 00:49:23,790
and what and training their families

1198
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:25,920
about what to expect after someone has

1199
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:28,530
died you know these I have a neighbor

1200
00:49:32,540 --> 00:49:31,050
and she's always coming to me like so I

1201
00:49:34,850 --> 00:49:32,550
heard the story or this happened in my

1202
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:34,860
family river and I just sort of I might

1203
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:38,010
as well have a card that I just show to

1204
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:40,530
where like that's normal like people

1205
00:49:45,109 --> 00:49:43,410
don't understand how normal these after

1206
00:49:47,930 --> 00:49:45,119
death communication experiences are and

1207
00:49:49,730 --> 00:49:47,940
it's a shame that that anybody can be

1208
00:49:51,500 --> 00:49:49,740
frightened by them because again it they

1209
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:51,510
demonstrate this continuing bond between

1210
00:49:57,020 --> 00:49:53,130
you and your deceased person which is

1211
00:49:59,180 --> 00:49:57,030
very healing we interrupt and give me to

1212
00:50:00,980 --> 00:49:59,190
speak to that let me T it up a little

1213
00:50:01,940 --> 00:50:00,990
bit different way I love what you just

1214
00:50:04,670 --> 00:50:01,950
said there

1215
00:50:07,130 --> 00:50:04,680
but tee it up if someone were to ask you

1216
00:50:10,070 --> 00:50:07,140
instead of what to Expect When You're

1217
00:50:12,650 --> 00:50:10,080
Expecting you know what to expect when

1218
00:50:15,260 --> 00:50:12,660
you're expecting to die I mean what is

1219
00:50:18,770 --> 00:50:15,270
that what should that conversation be

1220
00:50:22,370 --> 00:50:18,780
what are what is some of the ideas that

1221
00:50:24,650 --> 00:50:22,380
your science brings to that conversation

1222
00:50:26,780 --> 00:50:24,660
give us a preview of what you're gonna

1223
00:50:29,510 --> 00:50:26,790
say at this conference you know I'm not

1224
00:50:30,890 --> 00:50:29,520
entirely I'm not qualified at all to

1225
00:50:32,720 --> 00:50:30,900
talk about that that's what these health

1226
00:50:34,550 --> 00:50:32,730
care providers speaking at the coments

1227
00:50:36,650 --> 00:50:34,560
will talk about what I can talk about is

1228
00:50:40,550 --> 00:50:36,660
what happens after someone dies what to

1229
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:40,560
expect the the common experience of

1230
00:50:44,180 --> 00:50:41,970
after death communication which happens

1231
00:50:46,340 --> 00:50:44,190
to about 1/3 of the people of any kind

1232
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:46,350
of background any belief system any time

1233
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:48,810
after the death that that there are all

1234
00:50:52,370 --> 00:50:49,770
kinds of different things

1235
00:50:55,099 --> 00:50:52,380
sense of presence is really just I feel

1236
00:50:57,140 --> 00:50:55,109
like the person is here very first point

1237
00:51:01,280 --> 00:50:57,150
that first point you're making is what

1238
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:01,290
to expect after death would be what to

1239
00:51:07,609 --> 00:51:04,290
expect when someone you love has died

1240
00:51:08,810 --> 00:51:07,619
and you're saying well a third of the

1241
00:51:11,240 --> 00:51:08,820
people are going to tell you that

1242
00:51:12,980 --> 00:51:11,250
they're communicating with that person

1243
00:51:15,170 --> 00:51:12,990
after they died so right off the bat

1244
00:51:17,540 --> 00:51:15,180
that's a stat that you have to kind of

1245
00:51:19,609 --> 00:51:17,550
take in and internalize so that if that

1246
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:19,619
happens it shouldn't come as a big

1247
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:21,810
surprise right yeah and people should

1248
00:51:27,589 --> 00:51:24,090
expect that that's gonna happen and

1249
00:51:29,510 --> 00:51:27,599
that's common and normal and it's not

1250
00:51:31,430 --> 00:51:29,520
weird and you're not crazy and it's not

1251
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:31,440
a hallucination that that's really

1252
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:34,410
common and and you know if you had died

1253
00:51:37,609 --> 00:51:36,090
and people were grieving that you would

1254
00:51:40,339 --> 00:51:37,619
want to tell them like oh no look I'm

1255
00:51:42,020 --> 00:51:40,349
sorry here it's okay that's you know

1256
00:51:43,250 --> 00:51:42,030
that just seems like the motivation on

1257
00:51:45,260 --> 00:51:43,260
the part of the deceased would be so

1258
00:51:47,450 --> 00:51:45,270
it's it makes sense to me that that's a

1259
00:51:48,530 --> 00:51:47,460
very common experience and not an P and

1260
00:51:51,140 --> 00:51:48,540
it's unexpected right they're

1261
00:51:53,870 --> 00:51:51,150
spontaneous after death communication so

1262
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:53,880
it's not like people are seeing it

1263
00:51:58,070 --> 00:51:55,890
everywhere it's they're not expecting it

1264
00:52:00,320 --> 00:51:58,080
and then it happens and then they they

1265
00:52:02,420 --> 00:52:00,330
experience it and it's different like

1266
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:02,430
every time someone talks about it in

1267
00:52:07,730 --> 00:52:04,770
their research that I looked into like

1268
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:07,740
people were spontaneously bringing up

1269
00:52:11,510 --> 00:52:09,690
the word hallucination thing that's not

1270
00:52:13,820 --> 00:52:11,520
what it is I know that's not what it was

1271
00:52:15,859 --> 00:52:13,830
and so they experience it as very real

1272
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:15,869
and it's a you know this wide variety of

1273
00:52:20,599 --> 00:52:18,930
experiences but you know sense of

1274
00:52:23,270 --> 00:52:20,609
presence like I talked about hearing the

1275
00:52:26,710 --> 00:52:23,280
person feeling the person even seeing

1276
00:52:30,550 --> 00:52:26,720
things electronic disturbances hearing

1277
00:52:34,820 --> 00:52:30,560
oddly timed music songs on the radio

1278
00:52:36,410 --> 00:52:34,830
natural phenomena lost things found all

1279
00:52:39,589 --> 00:52:36,420
kinds of things that that people

1280
00:52:41,990 --> 00:52:39,599
experience as communication from their

1281
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:42,000
deceased loved one that they sort of

1282
00:52:45,859 --> 00:52:43,650
translate as the person is still in my

1283
00:52:50,390 --> 00:52:45,869
life which is tremendously healing for

1284
00:52:52,250 --> 00:52:50,400
grief and so it's such a shame in my

1285
00:52:54,349 --> 00:52:52,260
view that this it's not understood how

1286
00:52:55,790 --> 00:52:54,359
come and these things are and that when

1287
00:52:57,740 --> 00:52:55,800
they do happen to people those

1288
00:52:58,940 --> 00:52:57,750
experiences that they don't share them

1289
00:53:01,280 --> 00:52:58,950
and that they think that they've gone

1290
00:53:02,780 --> 00:53:01,290
crazy and they they go they sort of even

1291
00:53:04,609 --> 00:53:02,790
to themselves they oh I couldn't have

1292
00:53:06,950 --> 00:53:04,619
happened I must have been dreaming or I

1293
00:53:10,390 --> 00:53:06,960
must know that really happened to you

1294
00:53:12,770 --> 00:53:10,400
and and believing that it was real

1295
00:53:14,329 --> 00:53:12,780
demonstrates that continuing bond which

1296
00:53:17,570 --> 00:53:14,339
is sort of the only thing we know that

1297
00:53:21,349 --> 00:53:17,580
is helpful for grief great and then

1298
00:53:24,170 --> 00:53:21,359
final question I guess would be how

1299
00:53:25,220 --> 00:53:24,180
would you how would what is the

1300
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:25,230
relationship in

1301
00:53:29,990 --> 00:53:27,570
your mind for your personal journey here

1302
00:53:32,380 --> 00:53:30,000
in terms of this research the

1303
00:53:35,740 --> 00:53:32,390
relationship between the spontaneous

1304
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:35,750
afterlife communication and then the

1305
00:53:42,020 --> 00:53:39,090
assisted or induced and I'm not quite

1306
00:53:44,330 --> 00:53:42,030
sure the distinction but the assisted

1307
00:53:45,950 --> 00:53:44,340
afterlife communication is what we

1308
00:53:50,060 --> 00:53:45,960
generally talk about when we talk about

1309
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:50,070
a medium ship reading what has kind of

1310
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:52,530
that I'm not sure what my question is

1311
00:53:57,920 --> 00:53:54,330
but you know what is the link between

1312
00:54:01,030 --> 00:53:57,930
that and spontaneous after death

1313
00:54:03,260 --> 00:54:01,040
communication in terms of your research

1314
00:54:05,150 --> 00:54:03,270
going forward where do you think people

1315
00:54:05,950 --> 00:54:05,160
need to look in terms of linking those

1316
00:54:09,290 --> 00:54:05,960
two together

1317
00:54:12,140 --> 00:54:09,300
so spontaneous experiences of after

1318
00:54:13,849 --> 00:54:12,150
death communication are what the word

1319
00:54:15,620 --> 00:54:13,859
means spontaneous you didn't expect it

1320
00:54:17,570 --> 00:54:15,630
and they're there you're experiencing

1321
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:17,580
some form of communication from your

1322
00:54:22,310 --> 00:54:19,410
deceased loved one and then induced

1323
00:54:25,090 --> 00:54:22,320
after death communication is usually

1324
00:54:27,740 --> 00:54:25,100
takes one of two forms one is

1325
00:54:29,870 --> 00:54:27,750
participation in the psychomanteum which

1326
00:54:32,420 --> 00:54:29,880
is sitting in a dimly lit room like

1327
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:32,430
mirror gazing it's Raymond Moody was the

1328
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:34,770
one who came up writer Raymond OD who

1329
00:54:40,550 --> 00:54:37,530
really has pioneered the whole research

1330
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:40,560
into near-death experience and yet

1331
00:54:44,599 --> 00:54:42,330
sitting in a dark room with a mirror and

1332
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:44,609
seeing what happens right and which was

1333
00:54:49,250 --> 00:54:46,290
studied by Arthur Hastings and his team

1334
00:54:51,220 --> 00:54:49,260
at ITP Institute of transpersonal

1335
00:54:56,270 --> 00:54:51,230
psychology which is now Sofia University

1336
00:54:58,400 --> 00:54:56,280
in the early 90s that firl for many

1337
00:54:59,870 --> 00:54:58,410
years they studied it and then the

1338
00:55:03,920 --> 00:54:59,880
second kind of induced after death

1339
00:55:05,540 --> 00:55:03,930
communication is pioneered by Alan

1340
00:55:09,340 --> 00:55:05,550
botkin who was a psychologist who was

1341
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:09,350
using a therapeutic protocol called EMDR

1342
00:55:17,030 --> 00:55:13,530
amazing yeah and so he found when he did

1343
00:55:18,980 --> 00:55:17,040
this when he used this therapeutic with

1344
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:18,990
people if he did it a certain way that

1345
00:55:22,940 --> 00:55:20,850
people were experiencing after death

1346
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:22,950
communication and he sort of honed it

1347
00:55:27,470 --> 00:55:25,890
and now claims you can do it to anyone

1348
00:55:29,599 --> 00:55:27,480
and they can have after death

1349
00:55:31,430 --> 00:55:29,609
communication so those are examples of

1350
00:55:34,330 --> 00:55:31,440
induced after death communication which

1351
00:55:37,190 --> 00:55:34,340
also have been demonstrated to

1352
00:55:39,070 --> 00:55:37,200
statistically improve grief so we have

1353
00:55:41,530 --> 00:55:39,080
spontaneous which have been

1354
00:55:44,410 --> 00:55:41,540
studied by many people and shown an

1355
00:55:46,060 --> 00:55:44,420
improvement in grief induced experiences

1356
00:55:49,060 --> 00:55:46,070
of after death communication same thing

1357
00:55:51,190 --> 00:55:49,070
improves grief assisted after death

1358
00:55:52,660 --> 00:55:51,200
communication is talking to your

1359
00:55:54,670 --> 00:55:52,670
communicating with your deceased loved

1360
00:55:57,010 --> 00:55:54,680
ones through a mediumship reading and so

1361
00:56:00,520 --> 00:55:57,020
it only makes sense that that should

1362
00:56:03,580 --> 00:56:00,530
also improve grief and and anecdotally

1363
00:56:06,010 --> 00:56:03,590
in with exploratory questionnaire data

1364
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:06,020
it looks like it does but we need to do

1365
00:56:10,420 --> 00:56:08,570
the work and we so I've designed a

1366
00:56:12,940 --> 00:56:10,430
clinical trial and we need to do that

1367
00:56:14,410 --> 00:56:12,950
clinical trial to demonstrate is that is

1368
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:14,420
what we're hearing anecdotally and we're

1369
00:56:22,300 --> 00:56:16,690
seeing in exploratory research is that

1370
00:56:26,130 --> 00:56:22,310
phenomena real and if it is who might be

1371
00:56:28,720 --> 00:56:26,140
benefiting most and when might it be

1372
00:56:30,550 --> 00:56:28,730
contraindicated maybe you know the next

1373
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:30,560
day after someone dies it's not the best

1374
00:56:34,720 --> 00:56:32,450
time for a reading like maybe you know

1375
00:56:36,580 --> 00:56:34,730
when we have people participate in our

1376
00:56:38,470 --> 00:56:36,590
research we say a year you need to go

1377
00:56:40,900 --> 00:56:38,480
through your own natural process of

1378
00:56:43,660 --> 00:56:40,910
grief before you we and you know throw

1379
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:43,670
you into this communication with your

1380
00:56:49,210 --> 00:56:46,490
deceased experience and so maybe that we

1381
00:56:51,310 --> 00:56:49,220
don't know that's really wait no yeah

1382
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:51,320
and we don't know it for one individual

1383
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:53,330
it's a year and for another individual

1384
00:57:00,340 --> 00:56:56,450
it's 48 hours exactly exactly

1385
00:57:01,810 --> 00:57:00,350
and because the clinical community

1386
00:57:04,620 --> 00:57:01,820
really doesn't have anything to offer

1387
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:04,630
the grieving you know we talked about

1388
00:57:08,890 --> 00:57:07,130
traditional psychotherapy doesn't work

1389
00:57:11,490 --> 00:57:08,900
with grief in it it shouldn't it makes

1390
00:57:13,620 --> 00:57:11,500
sense that it doesn't because how can

1391
00:57:15,850 --> 00:57:13,630
psychologists

1392
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:15,860
demonstrate continuing bonds with your

1393
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:17,570
deceased loved one with you it doesn't

1394
00:57:22,090 --> 00:57:19,370
that doesn't make sense and you can't

1395
00:57:24,310 --> 00:57:22,100
use drugs for grief because it's it's

1396
00:57:26,860 --> 00:57:24,320
not long-term and it takes a long time

1397
00:57:28,570 --> 00:57:26,870
for like antidepressants to kick in and

1398
00:57:30,700 --> 00:57:28,580
it's not depression grief is not

1399
00:57:32,500 --> 00:57:30,710
depression it's a natural process so

1400
00:57:34,810 --> 00:57:32,510
there's nothing the clinical community

1401
00:57:38,050 --> 00:57:34,820
can really offer the grieving but this

1402
00:57:41,140 --> 00:57:38,060
seems like it really has meets like it

1403
00:57:44,350 --> 00:57:41,150
really is possible because induced and

1404
00:57:46,690 --> 00:57:44,360
spontaneous abcs help with grief it only

1405
00:57:50,230 --> 00:57:46,700
makes sense that assisted would as well

1406
00:57:51,850 --> 00:57:50,240
and so there's this giant hole in you

1407
00:57:52,690 --> 00:57:51,860
know like we're saying this this baby

1408
00:57:55,180 --> 00:57:52,700
boomer population

1409
00:57:57,640 --> 00:57:55,190
and has started to die and they're just

1410
00:57:59,410 --> 00:57:57,650
gonna be a lot of people grieving in the

1411
00:58:02,550 --> 00:57:59,420
near future and we have nothing to offer

1412
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:02,560
them whereas this is sort of a one-off

1413
00:58:08,950 --> 00:58:06,650
yet one reading demonstrate the bond now

1414
00:58:10,870 --> 00:58:08,960
you've redefined your relationship and

1415
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:10,880
you can move on with your life which i

1416
00:58:17,140 --> 00:58:12,890
think is what the dead want us to do

1417
00:58:18,700 --> 00:58:17,150
anyway is not cry about them is to is to

1418
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:18,710
keep living that's what we're here for

1419
00:58:23,349 --> 00:58:20,930
that's what we're still here to do keep

1420
00:58:27,910 --> 00:58:23,359
living keep having experiences and not

1421
00:58:31,690 --> 00:58:27,920
be stuck in our longing for them

1422
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:31,700
awesome awesome I got about 50 posts I

1423
00:58:35,020 --> 00:58:33,290
could do out of this and I that's right

1424
00:58:37,420 --> 00:58:35,030
because I really think you know back to

1425
00:58:41,250 --> 00:58:37,430
kind of our original kind of

1426
00:58:46,630 --> 00:58:41,260
pre-interview discussion I I do think

1427
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:46,640
there's I'm just excited about all this

1428
00:58:51,190 --> 00:58:48,410
whole thing because I just see so many

1429
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:51,200
different ways to kind of chop it up and

1430
00:58:54,970 --> 00:58:53,210
put it out there and hopefully just draw

1431
00:58:57,550 --> 00:58:54,980
more attention to it it's just great

1432
00:58:59,500 --> 00:58:57,560
work that you're doing Julie certainly

1433
00:59:02,109 --> 00:58:59,510
wish you the best of luck thanks so much

1434
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:02,119
for coming on and in updating us on

1435
00:59:06,819 --> 00:59:03,890
everything that you're doing it's been

1436
00:59:08,710 --> 00:59:06,829
an absolute joy talking to you as usual

1437
00:59:11,380 --> 00:59:08,720
my pleasure Alex thanks so much for

1438
00:59:13,180 --> 00:59:11,390
having me thanks again to dr. Julie

1439
00:59:15,460 --> 00:59:13,190
Bosco for joining me today on skeptic oh

1440
00:59:18,359 --> 00:59:15,470
one question to tee up for this

1441
00:59:21,579 --> 00:59:18,369
interview what do you make of the

1442
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:21,589
continuing bonds paradigm that I talked

1443
00:59:26,050 --> 00:59:23,210
about at the beginning of this show I

1444
00:59:28,870 --> 00:59:26,060
see it as another way that science is

1445
00:59:30,700 --> 00:59:28,880
backing off of materialism without

1446
00:59:32,950 --> 00:59:30,710
really announcing it and I think there's

1447
00:59:34,390 --> 00:59:32,960
a lot of those things going on but what

1448
00:59:36,940 --> 00:59:34,400
do you make of it are there broader

1449
00:59:39,010 --> 00:59:36,950
implications or is this much to do about

1450
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:39,020
nothing so give some thought to that and

1451
00:59:42,490 --> 00:59:40,490
let me know what you think the place to

1452
00:59:44,140 --> 00:59:42,500
do it is that the skeptical forum hey

1453
00:59:45,730 --> 00:59:44,150
please come back and visit the skeptical

1454
00:59:49,210 --> 00:59:45,740
forum where have you guys been come on

1455
00:59:50,770 --> 00:59:49,220
back and if you're new come on over we

1456
00:59:53,170 --> 00:59:50,780
have a lot of good conversations going

1457
00:59:54,819 --> 00:59:53,180
on there but I'd love to have more join

1458
00:59:56,800 --> 00:59:54,829
us over there of course you can also

1459
00:59:58,990 --> 00:59:56,810
join me on Facebook more and more people

1460
01:00:01,300 --> 00:59:59,000
are and that's great we're getting a

1461
01:00:03,460 --> 01:00:01,310
good number of shares on our shows I'd

1462
01:00:05,230 --> 01:00:03,470
love to have even more love to expand

1463
01:00:06,340 --> 01:00:05,240
the community share this with as many

1464
01:00:08,230 --> 01:00:06,350
people as possible

1465
01:00:10,060 --> 01:00:08,240
many people as you think could benefit

1466
01:00:11,290 --> 01:00:10,070
up from it that's something you can do

1467
01:00:13,270 --> 01:00:11,300
that helps out if you're so inclined

1468
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:13,280
I've also been getting some great

1469
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:15,370
support from people who have suggested

1470
01:00:20,140 --> 01:00:18,290
guests and have gone ahead and booked

1471
01:00:21,970 --> 01:00:20,150
some guests for me or at least made that

1472
01:00:22,750 --> 01:00:21,980
initial contact and that's really

1473
01:00:25,060 --> 01:00:22,760
fantastic

1474
01:00:26,770 --> 01:00:25,070
I'd love to engage with all of you and

1475
01:00:29,890 --> 01:00:26,780
doing that and you just have some

1476
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:29,900
fantastic selections and are able to get

1477
01:00:33,700 --> 01:00:31,250
these people to come on the show so

1478
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:33,710
that's great and if you want to do that

1479
01:00:38,530 --> 01:00:36,290
reach out and contact me email again in

1480
01:00:41,140 --> 01:00:38,540
Facebook any way you do it is great of

1481
01:00:45,340 --> 01:00:41,150
course the place to find skeptic Oh on

1482
01:00:48,310 --> 01:00:45,350
the web is at ske p TI k o com

1483
01:00:50,860 --> 01:00:48,320
or just google any of the various topics

1484
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:50,870
we cover and we're very searchable I

1485
01:00:54,850 --> 01:00:52,610
think you'll find us pretty quickly so

1486
01:00:56,890 --> 01:00:54,860
that's gonna do it for this episode have

1487
01:00:58,810 --> 01:00:56,900
a lot of stuff coming up a lot of

1488
01:01:00,280 --> 01:00:58,820
interviews coming out I keep doing more

1489
01:01:02,170 --> 01:01:00,290
and more I don't know I'm just gonna

1490
01:01:04,350 --> 01:01:02,180
have to start publishing them more

1491
01:01:06,820 --> 01:01:04,360
frequently because I can't resist

1492
01:01:08,980 --> 01:01:06,830
talking to all these great folks so

1493
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:08,990
you'll see more and more in the future

1494
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:12,410
and I hope you're ready for that but